Al McBride 0:00
Music. Welcome to the dealing with Goliath podcast. The mission of dealing with Goliath is to sharpen the psychological edge in negotiation, ethical influencing and high impact conversation for business leaders who want to be more effective under pressure, uncover hidden value and build greater connection and business relationships, all while increasing profitability. This is the short form espresso shot of insight podcast interview to boost business performance using our five questions in around about 15 to 20 minute format. My guests today are Kieran and Rachel McKenna. This is a first for the show. We’re having two people on. It’s very exciting. Kieran and Rachel run wood Hazel sales and marketing management consultancy. Kiron boasts a robust career in senior management and sales leadership, known for his excellent track record and boosting profit growth under various market conditions. He’s recognized for his great listening skills, intuition and fearless commitment to accountability, often asking the tough questions that drive progress. He is profoundly supportive, always considering the holistic development of his clients. Rachel McKenna is a seasoned marketing professional and mentor with a strong commercial sense, having cultivated her expertise primarily in the financial services sector across the UK and Ireland, alongside experiences in retail and startups, which has equipped her to lead marketing teams highly successfully. She values the authentic qualities of individuals and champions the belief that our unique differences enhance our collective strengths. Karen and Rachel, welcome to the show.

Ciaran McKenna 1:37
Lovely to be here. Thank you for the advice. Well, it’s

Al McBride 1:39
great to have you on. As I said, it’s a very interesting dynamic you have, because you know you’re the one of your sales expertise, the others marketing expertise. Some people see them as different. Other people see them as the same, the same coin, but just different sides, different perspectives. So let’s just start on that. I mean, can you explain that dynamic, how you work together?

Ciaran McKenna 2:04
Well, the our background is that we both went to the UK back back in the 80s as graduate trainees, and I ended up in sales. And Rachel and started in sales, but ended up in marketing. So we we we both ended up through graduate recruitment schemes and learned all we could learn whilst whilst deciding whether that was the career that we wanted. A lot of firms don’t give you that time these days that you know it was two or three years before you you generally had to specialize. I think so. I always love sales. And sales management in particular was my, my favorite role. And Rachel,

Rachel McKenna 2:46
yeah, I’ve always, I got, I’ve always worked alongside sales people, but with the mark, obviously, with the marketing. And for me, marketing, I’ve always enjoyed, because you have to understand the full business. And it’s it links in across the whole business, not you and so. And for me, it’s all, I think, and that’s where, when you’re asking about the link, I think at the end of the day, we’re all linking towards the customer. So if the customer is at the center, the marketing and the selling all have to work together towards supporting and helping the customer at the end of the day. That’s what we’re we’re all driving towards as to these important customers and keeping them happy and maximizing, you know, the opportunity there that they they unfold. So for me, selling and the marketing have to work side by side and link together. Yeah, there was times where, when I worked a marketing function, I’d be giving out about the selling, they don’t understand and and selling and equally, marketing, the sales people would be saying, oh, sales marketeers haven’t got a clue. But the reality is, we all have to collaborate and work together to actually they and they have to land, because there’s so much marketing is kind of a longer term kind of viewpoint, and the selling is, is really taking all those great elements of marketing and bringing it to life and making it happen and closing those sales. So that’s why, that’s my

Al McBride 4:09
view. It’s a very interesting one, because one of the things I do with a lot of with a lot of clients, particularly in even semi large organizations, middle, middle sized organizations, is have conversations with people in other departments and literally say, go for a cup of coffee and look, ask them what they do, what I do, that ruins their day, and vice versa. And I’d imagine there’s an awful lot of conversations that we had between people in marketing, people in sales, and an awful lot of companies, right? Does that knock on effect that they don’t realize.

Ciaran McKenna 4:42
Sometimes they need to be listening, though, and to be hearing what the others say. A lot of the time, you’ll find sales people will go in and they’ll say, the world, according to sales or or the marketeers will say, Oh, the sales people, they they’re out there. They’re doing this. They need to cultivate a culture of. Listening and understanding just what the other can bring in. So our aspect has always been about teamwork. And actually, Rachel is actually better at sales than I am from the point of view of normal, but she is much more specific, and she’s she’s a great planner, and she’s a finisher. I’m very good with blue sky, and I’m good with sales management and helping others to do it. So we kind of feel it’s there’s a bit of a there’s a bit of market here, in all of us, there’s a bit of sales and all of us. And in fact, sometimes your sales people can be your best marketeers, because they’re the ones coming back, giving you a lot of information about just what the market is saying and what the clients are saying. So it’s,

Rachel McKenna 5:47
yeah, I think that’s really, really important for marketing point of view, is that the opportunity to get up close with your with your customer or your prospects, and even feeling what’s going on in the market, you know, you just, you know, the amount of money that corporate companies spend and market research, and in a small business, you have that very close at hand. It’s actually really powerful. It’s because it means you can adapt really quickly. You can, kind of, you can change things, and you can and you can react, which is,

Al McBride 6:18
it’s a beautiful point, because, as you said, they’re right there on the ground, having the conversation with the with the customer, the prospect of the client, as you said, and able to gage not even the reality, but maybe even how things are shifting, how those perspectives need to evolve. Yeah, definitely.

Ciaran McKenna 6:37
And so product development, service developments, it’s so important that sales realize that actually they’re the eyes and ears, and they’re feeding that back, and the best people to be listening at the marketeers, because they understand, Ah, okay, yeah.

Rachel McKenna 6:52
And even, even the marketeers who have actually driven the branding and the messaging through, it’s important, and that that has driven through into the selling and and the messaging that’s gone and the interaction and the you know, and what’s actually being handed over to the end user and to the customer, and then that whole customer service they all have to lend themselves. And there has to be that in a diet, an ideal world, it just works seamlessly, and you have that consistency across from from start to finish, and that’s what we’re all I suppose that’s that’s what all business,

Ciaran McKenna 7:26
yeah. And so our little thing with regard to ourselves is that we promote ourselves as sales and marketing together, and you can get two for the price of one, from the point of view that you’re not just getting sales, or you’re not just getting marketing, or sometimes people don’t know what their problem is. And so having people there who can actually tease things out, which it makes such a difference, and, and we, we, we’re not shy of an opinion. So it’s, it’s always good to have, it’s

Al McBride 7:58
a very, very good point that you’re dealing with it. It’s kind of a point of differentiation, because oftentimes you get, as I said, a marketing person into advising that, or you get a sales person into advising that, but they’re missing a huge chunk of that equation. And is it when it’s more integrated? One would imagine it’s it covers more bases, more accurate. So the solutions you come up with are better fit, I would imagine, just on that, you know, who would you say your ideal clients are, and what, what’s the biggest challenge they tend to face?

Rachel McKenna 8:29
This is, well, yeah, well, we, we work really well with small business owners and their teams, and what we find is that when they’re setting out, particularly, we call them the professional reluctance salesperson. So they’re experts in what they do. They’ve gone out and got their training and they set up this amazing business, whether an accountant or, you know, a physio or whatever, they’re really good at that, but they haven’t necessarily had the expertise in selling and promoting and marketing themselves, and they don’t necessarily, they’ve forgotten, in some ways, that actually what makes them different is them. So, you know, there’s lots of accountants out there, but what the you know they are the difference to their business. So they need to get comfortable being being brought to the front of the business, and that isn’t necessarily somebody’s comfort zone, particularly setting out. So we need to give them the confidence to actually get out there and start having the conversations. Because when you’re starting in the sales, but in particular, it’s kind of having the confidence to start those engagements, and then as they start happening, we were great believers in experimenting. Just go out there and give it a try. Just just get started. And what you need to get started. For some people, it’s they have this perception that selling is, oh, I can’t sell yoke. I don’t like it. It’s because they have a mindset around what they perceive selling to be. And what we try to do is we find, we believe, there’s lots of different approaches to selling. It’s about finding the one that works for you and one that you’re that’s going to work to get you going.

Ciaran McKenna 9:57
And in the extreme cases, we will actually. Speak to people, and they’ll say, Oh, I hate selling it this. And so we have to go back to basics and say, So, what is selling? Oh, well. And so, what actually is it that you do? Well, I love helping my customers, and I love doing that. So is that not selling? You know, it is. It is literally getting people to frame it where they’re comfortable to be themselves. Because, as Rachel said, once you’re yourself and you’re your best self and you’re confident that you can go out and you’re happy to help someone, they’re the best salespeople. Because the next thing then is about providing the service, and the next thing then is about providing the backup, just in case things do go wrong, so people can understand that it’s not always going to go smoothly. There’s the thing issues can happen, but it’s how you cope with it, how you deal with it. It isn’t about just going in and wham bam gone. It’s the overall package. And in particular, if it’s something that you want to repeat and that people want to come back to you, then you need to be in the mode of, how can I help you? So it we help people to frame things, yeah,

Rachel McKenna 11:11
yeah. And when they’re starting out, it is about getting them going. But then as they start to develop their business and they’re looking to scale up, it’s been able to adapt what they have maybe look at their structures, their processes, their engagement with their current clients, and see how they need to tweak things or add to it, and where their focus needs to it’s all about where they’re focusing to get them to the next step, or get them to where their ultimate dream is. So it’s about keeping them moving forward and, you know, developing so that, because it in selling and even on the whole marketing, it is all about momentum, motivation, resilience as well. I think resilience is a is an important thing to maintain a momentum.

Al McBride 11:50
And just that brings us neatly to, you know, what are the common mistakes that many people make when they’re trying to solve those challenges, those before they find you, what are they doing? That isn’t working out, because this is often when people are listening, they go, Oh, that’s me. What are some of those symptoms? One

Ciaran McKenna 12:07
of the symptoms, one of the classic ones, is they feel they have to be something other than themselves. They Oh, I have to be this image. Or i They hide behind a phone, or they hide behind a camera, you know, online, and they almost have a fear of interacting and and, or they feel they have to tell them everything, rather than finding out what the customer wants and hearing it and having a conversation. This is something you you feel quite passionately about, Al because it is about being in the shoes of of the person that’s on the end of what you’re talking to them about and and actually understanding it’s, it’s not, it’s not a competition to tell them how much you can in a short space of time, or coming across as being really confident. It’s, it’s about being the best version yourself, but more importantly, using all the things that you have going for you, which is you’re listening, you’re feeling your intuition, you know. So it’s not just about talking, or it’s not just about telling. I

Rachel McKenna 13:16
think, I think the other thing Al is that, and this is where the marketing and the selling needs to work alongside each other. Sometimes people start off with the marketing, and they get this fantastic website, and they get this amazing brand, and and they and it looks, and they’re and they have their, you know, their social, social is just looking really, really, really professional and really and then suddenly they have to rock up at a meeting and and there’s the pressure to to kind of maintain that sort of facade and and it’s not really who they are. So so that that’s why sometimes we say, well, actually, is your marketing and your branding reflecting who you are? And that’s sometimes where you that’s why we believe that. Well, I believe quite strongly when you’re particularly when you’re starting your business, don’t spend too much money straight off. Get out there and have the conversation and just get a feel for how you want to show up. And I give the perfect example of when I moved out of the corporate world, it took me a little while to step out of the corporate branding kind of mindset, because I’d spent so many years sitting behind my compliance and legal and the fact that you weren’t, you had to be the company, brand, and you had, and suddenly, when we were stepped into wood Hazel, we were, we were, we were the brand. And how did we want to show up? Did we want to be that perfect? And I we probably were very professional. I probably rather than and it took us a while to kind of go on actually, we want to look professional, but in a more real way, so we kind of had to shift our approach. And I think that’s some, some of the things that we noticed with people, and that’s where, you know, and that’s, and it’s totally understandable, that’s so where the kind of the nervousness then comes when people have to go out and. To put themselves onto their business if it’s not aligned with what the business looks like. It’s

Al McBride 15:04
a great point. I mean, a lot of some people will call, you know, branding, or that sense beneath the marketing nearly, is, you know what people think of when they think of you? You know, what’s your reputation? What? What words do you want to spring into mind? Adjectives you want to spring into mind and in a prospect’s head when they think of you, and as you said, when you think of from that point of view, it makes it an awful lot more, well, real and relatable, rather than, as I said, falling into the trap of a beautiful looking website. But then you’re setting up an expectation that when you arrive in the door, you’re you’re probably trying to meet, and then neither work, because you’re not being terribly authentic self. And this thing doesn’t look anything maybe personal, snazzy as at night, yeah,

Ciaran McKenna 15:50
or they test you, and they try you and your service, and your your your your staff who are supplying the service aren’t up to what what they perceive. You

Rachel McKenna 16:03
absolutely.

Al McBride 16:04
I was interviewing an investigator, so literally, a guy who trained the FBI, and so it’s that end of negotiation where it’s far more confrontational half the time, but he does it for for business and different businesses and corporate. But it was exactly what you were saying there. It was exactly about test your love. And all the time you’re testing is this person speaking with integrity, because it’s looks good and it sounds good, but maybe you think, oh, there’s something a bit off here. And that’s where, as you said, when the person talking to you doesn’t really match the branding or the marketing, you think there’s a disconnect so which is accurate, which isn’t, or is any of it true? Yeah,

Rachel McKenna 16:46
because even sometimes you kind of notice where people start out wanting to be projecting themselves as bigger than they are, right? They think they have to be a we or they have to be part of a big team. There’s different strengths and being just a solopreneur than there is as being part of a team. But you have to decide which, because, again, it’s that perception. If you, you know, say that you give the perception through your marketing that you’re part of a big team, and then actually it’s just you, you might just get caught out, as Karen said, along the customer service element of the side of it. So it’s kind of thinking that whole journey through and understanding the customer journey and what what you actually want your customer to experience, and making sure that that is, you know, following through, and who you are as well, and that you can actually, I think, because at the end of the day, exactly what you were saying, this ethical approach at approach as to, I think if you go with that sort of basis, you you can’t go far wrong, because you’ll try and do things you know upfront and honestly and and and say it as it is you know. Because I do think if you’re doing it on your own, you bring in a level of expertise that maybe you know, if you’re part of a group, there’s different there’s different dynamics that you have to think about, because you might have a more junior person that you know that may not be able to look after that client, but they were thinking, Oh, I was getting you. You know, it’s so

Speaker 1 18:14
there’s you have to think about all of that as well. And

Ciaran McKenna 18:18
it’s knowing knowing your limitations, it’s knowing what you can and but more importantly, to know what you can’t do. And sometimes there are orders you should lose if you can’t, if you can’t fulfill it because he you’re going to put yourself under stress. You’re going to put yourself under pressure, or, as I say, you could be endangering what could be a great relationship by starting it off on the wrong foot. So it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s, these are all the things but, but the sales and the marketing is, is all about trying to be the best that you can be, and doing your best, but make sure that the service that you are providing or the product that you’re going to sell matches what you’ve told them. Because, as I say, reputation is is such a difficult thing to to change if it if it goes so then, yes, yeah.

Rachel McKenna 19:09
I think the other thing we find a lot of people are scared of is the No. Kind of think that, you know, and that’s where we just do talk about the resilience, but it is okay to get a no because you’re not going to, not everybody is going to buy from you, and not everybody, and that’s okay because it might, you know, and I think it’s getting comfortable with that, because actually it’s it. We always say it’s the maybes that are actually more difficult to manage, because you don’t know whether you’ve actually given them enough value, if you’ve actually explained, if you’ve actually heard them enough, if you’ve actually need to spend more time on that, whereas a yes or a no as a definite, it’s going one way, and I might be a node for now, you just not, you know. So there’s different ways of looking at it. So again, we always, we always encourage people to try and get to some sort of an answer, because. That’s, that’s, that’s powerful. If nothing else, it’s really valuable from a marketing point of view. You can, kind of, you know, you can use that to go back into your whole process and see if you need to tap things very good

Al McBride 20:11
and excellent stuff. There’s a lot of stuff there, but there’s some key principles which are, which are excellent, and do you have a valuable free action the audience can implement that will help them? So you’re talking about being in alignment. You’re talking about, you know, having your your branding or and then into your marketing, reflect who you are and what you you stand for, at least want to stand for, and how you want to do business. Is there any anything else that you would recommend maybe that doesn’t solve the problem for people, but at least puts them in that right trajectory.

Rachel McKenna 20:45
Yeah, I think, I think, you know, definitely spending time thinking about, you know, you I think it’s as Oscar Wilder says about, you know, there’s only one of you. Everyone else has been taken. So don’t undervalue the strength that you you bring and and and being the best that you can be is what actually is the difference to your business and And equally, your client respects them as being an individual as well. So if you when you’re meeting them, if you can, you know, we often talk about stepping into their shoes or empathizing and hearing them. So there’s always the Strength of Youth turning up at your as your real self and and getting in and really tapping into through listening and asking and finding out and finding out the curious questions who they really are, and then seeing if you can help them. I think, you know, so it’s, we always say, it’s the relationship, and really having that honest rapport and that connection is where you where the magic really happens. And

Ciaran McKenna 21:50
sometimes, you know, you mentioned about a free little thing, a free little thing to do, sometimes is just, just to do a little survey. So you’re actually hearing and, you know, have it, have some questions, and be quite open about it, and to ask what, what they’re looking for. So it can help people to get over their nervousness as well. You know, where you’re actually asking questions, but you’re listening and you’re, you’ve asked permission to take notes, you know, and say, Ah, okay. And so the customer is actually feeling, oh, they’re listening, and they’re, they’re interested. And then you adapt what you’re going to offer in relation to what you’ve heard. So it it’s it is about using your senses, not going in and telling all the time. It’s about listening, hearing, and then adapting what you’re going to do in light of what you learn.

Al McBride 22:36
Very good. Do you have a valuable, free resource that you could direct people to, that would help them

Rachel McKenna 22:42
with. Yeah, we have our YouTube, which, again, you’ll get through our website, which I know you’ll probably put up at the end of this. And we have a lot of kind of, you know, tips, little short videos around kind of active listening, and tips on how to have those conversations and close those sales. So probably good starting points for people if they just want to have a look at

Ciaran McKenna 23:02
anytime we’ve appeared on a podcast, if we can, we throw it up there and people can have a look.

Al McBride 23:10
That’s wood Hazel. Dot I use the website, um, what’s, what’s the name of your YouTube channel? Is it the same? It

Rachel McKenna 23:16
would be wood Hazel as well. Yeah. Wood Hazel consulting, yeah. But if they Yeah, if they get to the website, they’re probably going to contact us and they’ll find the the link there to the or YouTube as well. Excellent.

Al McBride 23:29
And what would be your number one insight or principle you could offer on how to negotiate or build rapport and connection with a prospect or a client? I know we’ve covered quite a few of these already, but I’m trying to get more out of it.

Ciaran McKenna 23:45
Well, I suppose that

Speaker 2 23:48
it, it really is about actually being

Ciaran McKenna 23:55
in the moment when you’re actually having the conversation and actually not not getting ahead of yourself, or not letting past prejudices. I think it’s treating it as a conversation, and actually using your time when you’re with them, to appreciate who they are, what they are, and not to see it as as, oh, I’ve got to win this, or not to see it as, oh, what’s the best thing for me? And negotiation as as you know, is win, win. From the point of view that people have, both parties have to feel like it’s come it’s been a worthwhile thing. Uh, even if it’s just a one off sale, it does really help. Because, again, as we said earlier, reputation is everything. So if you have a reputation for being someone who’s Oh, and certainly I looked and it’s that wasn’t the price, or it is about going in, listening, hearing, being part of the conversation, and actually making the most of it, enjoying yourself, which. And again, people don’t do often enough you know, where you can actually smile and actually enjoy the process, because it is just a conversation. But the key is to actually understand who they are, what they are, and see where you come to at the finish. Yeah,

Rachel McKenna 25:17
yeah. I think it’s also remembering that you’re selling something, but they’re buying something, and there’s a slightly different so they’re coming at it from a slightly different point of view as well. So that’s why it’s important to see it from their point of view as well. Absolutely.

Al McBride 25:33
I love those, those principles you know, very much in line my own seeing it from from the other side, but also just a little bit something that’s often not mentioned, I just want to double down on it, is that idea of being fully present in the live conversation. Because there’s nothing worse than people talking off a script. Like, yeah, you can have your points that you want to make sure they understand, or the questions you want to make sure to ask to get you know the the prospect or the clients thinking and how they’re feeling about this, of course, the structure there. But as I said, the amount of people that don’t actually listen to the live conversation, it’s phenomenal. It makes all the difference. So

Ciaran McKenna 26:12
and on top of that, Al, it’s, it’s, don’t be afraid to use people’s names. Don’t be afraid to if you ask someone who uses hand gestures, as long as it’s not too much, but, but be yourself. And as I say, Be in the moment. And actually, the best conversations usually come from people relaxing and actually being there. And it’s amazing how often the natural conversation takes you to where, whereas if you think you’ve got it planned, and, oh, why didn’t I say that? Of course, you should review after you’ve done it and say, What could I have said? Or what that? That’s all part of the process. But don’t spend your whole time thinking or saying, Oh, damn, I didn’t say that. And, or should it, you know, be in the conversation, and then review it afterwards and see how it went. Excellent,

Al McBride 27:01
excellent. Well, thank you very much. It’s been fabulous having you on the show. So where can people learn more about you

Rachel McKenna 27:09
again? If you want to visit us on our website, which is wood hazel.ie, or we’re both on LinkedIn, we’d love to connect and set up a conversation. Excellent

Al McBride 27:18
stuff. And as I said, your all your videos go on YouTube as well. Huge resource there. Great to have you in the show. Thank you very much.

Ciaran McKenna 27:29
See you again. Thank you. Bye.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai