Al McBride 0:03
Welcome to the dealing with Goliath podcast. The mission of dealing with Goliath is to sharpen the psychological edge in business leaders with skin in the game, who want to be more effective under pressure, uncover hidden value, and increase profitability.

Al McBride 0:18
With expert guests across the business spectrum we deliver gems of insight delving into their methods, their thinking and approach to problem solving. This particular episode is a longer form Podcast, where we take the time to delve a little bit deeper into our guests experiences stories, and get those priceless nuggets for you.

Al McBride 0:38
I’m your host Al McBride. My guest today is the remarkable Mr. Peter Sandeen. Peter focuses on the fundamentals that make marketing consistently effective. Over half his clients are other marketing experts who wants to help us marketing messaging sales funnels and conversion optimization now is known for being focused straightforward and practical.

Al McBride 1:03
Many experts have adopted as processes and frameworks to simplify the most complex marketing topics, thought of by many, as the marketers marketer, Danny Iny said, Peter helped me increase my sales 423% quite remarkable, as he’s a renowned expert in his own right.

Al McBride 1:23
Peter focuses on the fundamentals that make marketing effective. He regularly writes not just on how you can influence the decisions of others, but how people make those very decisions. So it doesn’t focus so much on tools and tactics and strategies.

Al McBride 1:37
But more so what makes those strategies effective. Now, on a personal note, I have to say, I’ve known Peter for a number of years now, Peter has been a huge help and a huge resource to me. Now, I can say firsthand, very much that I know few people, nevermind marketers, few people, few business brains that are quite as incisive or others that can give such Stark clarity as quickly as Peter.

Al McBride 2:08
So I recommend him if you have marketing or business issues, typically business strategy, or as I said, sales conversions and all the things that we’re going to talk about in a couple of minutes. But if you need clarity, this guy can cut through all the confusion, all the noise, all the multiple different perspectives faster than I think maybe anyone else that I know.

Al McBride 2:34
So it doesn’t surprise me one jot, that so many top marketers who really know their industry and know what they’re doing in their own right. When they get stuck and have issues.

Al McBride 2:45
Peter is the guy to go to. So he has a huge wealth of knowledge and insights to offer. And that’s why I am so grateful to have him on the show with me today. So please welcome Peter

Al McBride 2:08
Let’s kick off with that idea. Now, just in that little description that I read out there, one word really jumped out at me, compared to many experts, because usually experts work in complexity, they add layers of complexity.

Al McBride 2:24
And the word that really jumped out at me was simplify. So I was wondering, could you tell us more about this? I mean, is the simplifying simplification element crucial to your method to how you work?

Peter Sandeen 2:37
Yes, that’s pretty much how I look at most things. I think one of the most interesting questions when you’re trying to learn any skill, whether it’s marketing related, or something else is to ask actual experts who know a lot about it, that if you could tell me to focus on just three things, just three things, what should those be?

Peter Sandeen 2:58
So that if you’re able to find the things that matter the most, and get those things done, right, you usually get much, much better results than the people who get 100 things approximately right? Because as long as you don’t get them, right, you don’t get any results.

Peter Sandeen 3:13
But if you get the most important things, right, then it doesn’t usually in most cases matter nearly as much as 100. Other things could be done better, but are not. Because the things that really make the difference are are great.

Peter Sandeen 3:25
So that’s how I’m viewing marketing topics that like, like you mentioned that like complex things, making most complex things simple. I view them as simple things that people just over complicate, because they’re not focused on the fundamentals within it. So it’s a I don’t actually think of them as complex things.

Peter Sandeen 3:45
But rather, they’re usually seen as complex things because people knowingly or not over complicate them, especially if they’re not the experts who can tell that well, I’m talking about this aspect of the topic. What it sounds like to other people is that Oh, that aspect is the key thing.

Peter Sandeen 4:01
But there’s there’s 100 other people talking about the same topic, but different aspects. So I guess there’s hundred equally important things and like, no, there’s like one or two or maybe three.

Peter Sandeen 4:12
But yeah, that’s how I view it. And that’s how I tried to view almost everything that I do, because I don’t have the mental capacity to do 100 different teams very well. I’d much rather focus on a few.

Al McBride 4:23
That’s very interesting. It sounds like your philosophy is very much aligned with the 8020 principle, the Pareto principle that all you need really is to make a few of the most important things right, or get them nailed down and then everything else can be good enough and you’ll be fine. Whereas you say most people, maybe they get some things that don’t matter really good. But it’s not effective for them.

Peter Sandeen 4:52
Yeah, I think breeder principle works really well. I don’t use it use it as my own mental model, but But yeah, it’s you It’s definitely in line with what I think.

Al McBride 5:03
Are you good at what can you give us more information? When a client comes to what are some of those key two or three areas that you always focus right down on into?

Peter Sandeen 5:13
Well, I think underneath all marketing is basically this triangle of what’s your target customer? What’s your offer? And how are you presenting it. So who the target customer is, what is the offer and your messaging, if you get those, right, the rest becomes relatively simple.

Peter Sandeen 5:30
Like you can use any reasonable tactic. And it can create great results, you can use any reasonable strategy, and it can work great for you. Whereas if you get any one of those wrong, then everything else will be exceedingly difficult. If you’re trying to sell to people who don’t want to buy what you’re selling.

Peter Sandeen 5:47
It’s very, very difficult, not impossible, but very, very difficult. And there’s a fairly like, slim area of of like success there. That it’s like a, I should come up with a good metaphor for this. But the point is that, like, if you’re throwing darts, and you miss the Bullseye, you’re not really screwed by it.

Peter Sandeen 6:08
But in marketing, if you get at all outside of the bullseye, things get exceptionally hard. And that’s sort of what I try to look for, like, Where is that thing that isn’t just right, because when you get those stressed, right, you’re talking to people who really want exactly the type of offer you’ve created, and you’ve made it super enticing for them.

Peter Sandeen 6:27
So it’s exactly what they wish they would have found. And then all you have to do is essentially figure out how do you show it to them? What is the message that makes them understand that?

Peter Sandeen 6:37
Like, it doesn’t matter to you use social media, or blogging, or advertising or webinars or whatever. As long as it’s somewhat makes sense, in your context, you’re probably going to get very good results as long as you get just the very bare minimum done. Right.

Al McBride 6:52
Right. Good. It’s like a mutual friend of ours says, you know, good marketing is just offering people what they already want. Yeah. Which, which makes sense. Like, you know, you’re removing a lot of friction, you’re removing a doubt, and all those things that as you said, when they’re not quite when it’s not quite the right offer, it’s not quite the right customer or client, or as you said, Target, then these things create friction, and that’s where there’s an awful lot of problems.

Peter Sandeen 7:18
Okay. Yeah, like I’ve been just working on a workshop on offers specifically and how you create an enticing offer. And, and one of the things they’re like you said, use it an example was a client marketing expert, who had a, basically a very good quality coaching program, the quality was brilliant, everyone who went through it got amazing results.

Peter Sandeen 7:38
But he had some trouble selling it. I mean, he sold fine, but it was really like seemed like something’s wrong. So I suggested a different guarantee. Nothing else, I think, I mean, we made some minor changes elsewhere, but the guarantee was the major change. And I think more than tenfold increase the sales the next time I launched.

Peter Sandeen 7:58
Because suddenly the guarantee, I mean, I could tell that like, looking at his copy, everything was really good. So like, what’s the problem? What can be the reason people don’t buy this, assuming he’s talking to the right people, which I also assumed was right.

Peter Sandeen 8:11
And I just figured out that they have this worry, they’re worried about this one thing, guarantee that if that happens, you’re not going to just give them their money back, but give, give more money back to like, really, actually truly guarantee that this thing works. And,yeah, that worked.

Al McBride 8:28
So just just ask, I know, you can’t give specifics on client details, but what was the guarantee before was a two standard? And what was the change to

Peter Sandeen 8:37
The previous one was just a standard money back guarantee, if you’re not happy within 30 days, or whatever, you get your money back? Okay, I’ve talked about guarantee blindness, which is basically that if you just take a 30 day money back guarantee, most people are just like, Yeah, okay. Like, they don’t really register it.

Peter Sandeen 8:54
I’m not saying you shouldn’t do it, or that it wouldn’t help your sales. I’m just saying that it’s not something people will stop to and be like, Whoa, that’s amazing. Like, that must be an amazing thing you’re selling, if you have that much trust in, you know, like, you have to guarantee something more specific or make it stronger otherwise. And the new one was, what can’t say the details. But the basic idea was that if this thing doesn’t happen, you get your money back and a couple thousand dollars on top.

Al McBride 9:20
Wow,

Peter Sandeen 9:22
that’s a really is more than the price of the program. But like, double or triple your money back, I’ve used a similar one with a high ticket offer if you don’t get if you don’t say more sales, because of what I suggest you get twice your money back.

Peter Sandeen 9:36
So it gives a very special I mean, that’s a very specific offer. I don’t categorically offer that to every situation. But as an example of like, if, if people don’t truly believe something is going to happen, then just saying that will you get your money back if it doesn’t, I don’t think it has a lot of power anymore.

Al McBride 9:54
That’s a very interesting point. Because you were talking about the perception of the potential buyer, obviously reading this, there’s a still a worry or a concern there. Right? Whereas you said that the guarantee blindness is, is part of that because they don’t believe they’ll get their money back, or is it more so that Oh, I know I can get my money back.

Al McBride 10:17
But I have to spend hours of my time and effort doing something that doesn’t work, then having to ask for the money back, which loads of people are very uncomfortable about, like, what what what do you think? I know we’re surmising a little bit here. But what do you reckon the issue, there was the difference?

Peter Sandeen 10:35
I think part of it is the last year that you pointed out that it is the last time and just giving someone’s money back doesn’t pay for that they just didn’t lose money. They just lost a time.

Peter Sandeen 10:47
But I think in some cases, it’s also that if you’re not, if you’re just saying that we’ll get your money back, it can easily sound like it on a skeptics mind, it will sound like Well, I guess most people just won’t ask. And that’s how you make your profit, like, you’re not really risking anything.

Peter Sandeen 11:04
Although they do forget that there is a cost associated with getting the customers and then refunding the money. It’s not like they wouldn’t lose anything. But overall, it can be seen as just a marketing ploy. But if you say that well, either you get this specific measurable result, or you get this many thousands of dollars extra back like no one can look at it and be like, well, that’s just a marketing trick.

Peter Sandeen 11:26
Like, people just won’t bother to ask for their that that because it’s so much money that obviously they would ask if that result doesn’t happen. But you can’t always promised that but I knew that, in that case, people who went through the program got the result. So it wasn’t a problem of we can’t guarantee it’s it’s rather well, we’re guaranteeing it, but it doesn’t mean anything to be.

Al McBride 11:49
As he said it changes the perception is a phrase I use quite a lot with the skin in the game idea that, you know, as you said with it, with the flat guarantee, what you’re saying is an off if I’m hearing it right, an awful lot of people don’t feel that the the vendor, the seller has skin in the game so much.

Al McBride 12:06
Whereas when they’re offering to pretty much compensate them for their monetarily for their time as well, then it’s oh wow, you really do have skin in the game? Therefore, you’re probably not giving me nonsense here. It’s not, you’re the real deal.

Peter Sandeen 12:23
Yeah, I think a generic money back guarantee, or just a flat Money Back Guarantee works well, if there is some other way that you can show that this has actual cost for me. So if you say that, well, I have 10 slots for a program. And you’re going to take one of those.

Peter Sandeen 12:39
Then there is a major opportunity cost, like if I have to refund your $50,000 or whatever it is, even if it is a lot less, I think it still would work. But as long as there is a clear perception of I am taking one slot that you won’t sell to someone else. So it actually does mean something for you as the seller.

Peter Sandeen 12:58
But I think a bigger part of it is really just that everyone’s offering the 30 day money back guarantee. And again, I’m not saying you shouldn’t I do that sometimes too. But it’s it doesn’t really have all that much impact. It’s more like well, you have to because people just assume it’s there.

Peter Sandeen 13:13
If you don’t, then it’s like well wait, why? How bad is this? Like? What are you trying to do? So it’s a more of an expectation. And when you just meet people’s expectations, you don’t create at all this like, Oh, I should focus on this, I should notice this, but rather, it’s just like, okay, that’s done. Okay, what’s next, like it just goes through the glide with nothing leaving behind?

Al McBride 13:34
I haven’t seen occasionally, usually with export focused products, where they flip it and they say there’s no guarantee. And in fact, if you ask for one, you’re probably not for me for my client. And it was someone who will remain nameless, but who was pretty legendary for the last 10 or 20 years at very least, I suppose you have to have a huge amount of credibility already in the bank that you deliver, and deliver and deliver. To be able to have that kind of a, there is no guarantee. It’s a very ballsy move, though.

Peter Sandeen 14:09
I do that with coaching, I don’t guarantee coaching results, because I am not really in charge of doing anything other than just telling you what to do. If you don’t do the work, then like, it’s not my problem.

Peter Sandeen 14:21
I’m not doing the work, I’m not going to give you your money back, I did my work as well as I possibly could. Like for coaching, I wouldn’t offer a money back guarantee. I make minor exceptions to that with a single call that like well if you don’t feel like you’ve got your money’s worth and Okay, you get most of your money back.

Peter Sandeen 14:39
Like I’m not going to give 100% because that starts to attract the wrong kind of people, which is essentially what that person said that if you if you’re the kind of person who wants there to be 100% money back guarantee, I don’t want to work with you as a coach. Because that’s, that generally means you’re not the type of person I want.

Al McBride 14:56
Right and that’s interesting because it spins the skin in the game thing the other way that the customer or client doesn’t have enough skin in the game either then because they’re they’re obviously desperately looking for a way out a safety net.

Peter Sandeen 15:10
Yes. And as as poor as it might seem and sound and look at that is very common. Unfortunately, it is very common that people don’t have the commitment to actually do the work. So it’s like everyone who just like starts doing a lot of coaching will eventually come across people who don’t execute on the simplest possible things that like, the coach knows are the right things to do.

Peter Sandeen 15:35
Obviously, they might be wrong, technically, but like, they feel certain This is the right thing to do. And if you don’t try, then how could we even know. But the client just doesn’t do that. And if there would be a completely sort of free money back guarantee, there.

Peter Sandeen 15:49
Unfortunately, it’s those same people who probably would use it. So it’s not only frustrating for the coach who’s spending their time the client isn’t getting the results they could get. But then they also would have to give the money back. So it’s just doubly frustrating.

Peter Sandeen 16:03
So I’m not too surprised that people don’t do that. But then again, I’ve usually had this like, if you don’t like it after the first call, yeah, okay, you get your money back. But like, then I’ve risked very little, I’ve risked that one call.

Peter Sandeen 16:16
And I’ve already vetted people a little bit by that point, it’s not like people just go to my website and buy a year long coaching program, like I know who they are, by that point that I talk with them. So it’s that I don’t think I’ve ever had to give money back on.

Peter Sandeen 16:32
But like if people have bought just one call, and I’ve had years ago, I had a completely unconditional, long money back guarantee, I think one person asked for it. And they asked for it because they completely forgot what we were talking about. And didn’t execute on anything.

Peter Sandeen 16:47
But anyway, like guarantees are not exactly my my specialty of that, like they are a good example of that. If you can change the perception of it, then you change your results, if you make changes that don’t affect people’s truly what they’re thinking what they’re focused on what they believe, then it doesn’t change their behavior.

Peter Sandeen 17:06
Guarantees are just a simple example of how if you can change their perception with it, you change your results. And it works both ways. If you say that will unconditional 10 year money back guarantee, and if you don’t like it, you get $10,000 extra on top.

Peter Sandeen 17:19
I mean, obviously that will spark people to think their perception changes. For somehow I can’t say what because it’s contextual. But also, if you just say that there are no money, there’s no guarantees, if you’re the type of person who needs a guaranteed like this is not for you, that also changes people’s perception, because it makes them think that so am I the type of person who needs that guarantee?

Peter Sandeen 17:42
Like, do I want to be that kind of person? Or do I rather want to be the kind of person who doesn’t need that safety net, but rather, is really there to do the work. And I mean, again, contextually can have a very different effect. But yeah, as long as you’re not changing how people perceive what you’re offering, you’re not probably going to see any difference in your sales.

Al McBride 18:01
Okay, so it is the change of perception in the client in the potential clients or customers mind that you’re looking for. It’s a very interesting point. Is that also where the vast majority of marketing falls down that there isn’t a change in perception.

Al McBride 18:17
That either instead, it’s that blindness, that it’s it’s just bland, you know, people have heard it 1000 times before, or the other end of that spectrum, which is believability that you make a claim that people are going I don’t believe that’s possible.

Peter Sandeen 18:32
I think all of the above can be the points. It’s very commonly the issue in conversion optimization that people are testing and changing things that don’t change the perception. They’re changing how they say something, but they’re just changing how they say the same thing. And if you say the same thing in seven different ways, people mostly still perceive it as pretty much the same.

Peter Sandeen 18:54
But if you say completely different things, you talk about different topics, then you create a difference in perception. That’s why 90 something percent of AV tests end up being completely useless. They don’t produce any results, regardless of sample size, and so on.

Peter Sandeen 19:09
But the other things are true as well, I think where most marketing falls flat is there isn’t truly a good match between the target customer, what you’re selling them or what you’re offering them and how you’re presenting that offer. So what is the messaging there?

Peter Sandeen 19:25
For example, what typically is told to people is that just list out all the benefits and all the positive outcomes people will get. And there is a way to make that work. It’s old copywriting advice, and it is very good advice. If you know how to apply it. If you don’t know how to apply it.

Peter Sandeen 19:40
You sound like a used car salesman. And it doesn’t mean anything anymore. When you list out 100 different benefits. All of it just becomes this mush, nothing stands out. So even if there were some of the benefits people desperately want, they hardly noticed those.

Peter Sandeen 19:56
Whereas if you just say three things, for example, well you will get this there. In this benefit, do you want to know more, because that’s really this option. If you don’t want those, then buy something else. If you want those things, then that suddenly sounds like the perfect option for you.

Peter Sandeen 20:10
So, when people try to say too many things, it sort of becomes this bland thing, even if there are somewhere in between all those things are the right things, the potentially impactful things. So when I work with messaging, it is, let’s say, 80% of the time, or 70% of the time, there’s no new thoughts. It’s just taking away 90% of the thoughts and uncovering the ones or focusing on the ones that actually make a difference.

Al McBride 20:35
It’s Yeah, it’s that example of Picasso. You know, he can do the standard painting when he was 15. That looked like a super painting. But it is it The difficult thing was drawing a bull with one line that perfectly evokes not just a bull, but nearly the spirit of the bull with the look of the bull.

Al McBride 20:55
And that was the trick. It’s, as I said, the other one isn’t where, you know, apologies for writing a long letter, I didn’t have time to write a short one. It’s the same idea that it’s easy to just list these things out.

Al McBride 21:09
It’s difficult to be concise. Is that an element? When, because as we were saying earlier, you work a great deal with half with business owners and about half with marketing experts. Is that one of the key differences when you work with marketing experts up there down with a lot of these principles, or is it you have to do some of the same processes regardless

Peter Sandeen 21:31
Well we go through the same steps.It’s the shoe makers son doesn’t have shoes. But the main problem is that even if you’re very good at the same things, the fundamentals, the primary problem is that you are you not your customer, and you have to change that sort of it’s not even sort of having a mirror in front of you.

Peter Sandeen 21:55
But rather, you truly have to see how the other person sees what you are offering them. So like when people define a target customer, the traditional way is to define what do they look like to you? How would you describe them? How would you pick them out of a crowd? And like for messaging, that’s not useless, but mostly useless. Sometimes it’s very meaningful, but it’s only a sliver of what’s meaningful. So just

Al McBride 22:18
just to clarify them, and you’re talking about Demographics As such,

Peter Sandeen 22:22
yeah. Things like gender, age, location, industry, company size, job title, those sorts of things. There’s usually I’m not saying they don’t who also some of the psychographics or something in between, which is like, well, they have this problem or something.

Peter Sandeen 22:38
Yes, they do a bit of that. But when 99% of the effectiveness comes from those things, as in, how do they see what we’re offering, and defining the target customer based on, they all have the same perception of us or the same perspective towards the type of thing we’re going to sell them.

Peter Sandeen 22:55
You can’t really create effective marketing, because you’re trying to talk to people who have a different idea of what you’re selling. And then at the same time, you can’t make it so that it’s effective for both of them. And as long as you’re defining it based on something as useless as gender or age.

Peter Sandeen 23:10
In most cases, there are some exceptions where those things really are very meaningful. But in most cases, the fact that someone’s job title is chief executive officer or whatever, isn’t how they view the topic. It’s not like, well, I want this service because I’m a CEO.

Peter Sandeen 23:27
No, like, it’s not like they buy an email marketing software, because we’re this sort of company, or it’s not that they buy clothing, because while I am this aged, like it, I mean, maybe that’s a thing for someone, but most people don’t go like Well, I’m 50 now, so I need to buy a suit.

Peter Sandeen 23:46
There’s a specific type of suit that I need to buy, because I’m 50. Like that’s not how people think they have a perception of their perspective to the topic, like I want to look this way, or I want to feel this way.

Peter Sandeen 23:56
Or maybe I want something that feels luxurious. So now I buy this type of a suit. And I’m looking for these sorts of things related to it. Or the company’s thinking that well, we have trouble not with getting new clients and so on, but upselling them.

Peter Sandeen 24:10
So how could we solve that? Well, if we did this sort of email marketing, it could work. So what sort of solution would enable that? It’s not like they go there? Well, we’re a food company. So we need email marketing, like, what they do, can influence how they see the problem they’re trying to solve.

Peter Sandeen 24:28
But most of the time it doesn’t. And still how people usually define target customers is almost only what is sort of how they see the customer rather than what the customer sees when they look back at you. And that’s difficult to do for someone else or ourselves.

Al McBride 24:49
There’s an element you know, from design thinking where we you do a huge amount of discovery research you have conversation after conversation after conversation, but even when we goes out and interviews the users of whatever it is you’re trying to improve.

Al McBride 25:05
Whether it’s a shopping trolley, our stroller, pram, or whatever, you usually have someone else with you who’s taking notes on the things they say as well as what they don’t say.

Al McBride 25:19
So because you know, because there’s all of these, what people say, and then what their behavior is slightly different again. Yeah, their behavior and actions different for how they justify their behavior or their choices. So it does get very complex. So when you have, as he said, 10 or 20 benefits to the customer, but they’re there, they’re, what would you say they’re features of your product or service?

Al McBride 25:48
How do you then start to really whittle them down to not what you think is the best? Because that’s always the trap, isn’t it? You think, Oh, these three things are the coolest or the most useful? Whereas the customers are like, Yeah, I like number one, but two, and three, me nothing.

Al McBride 26:03
How do you get that feedback? Then? How do you decide on what those key as you said, three is the magic number of key three things rather than listing 10 or 12 of them.

Peter Sandeen 26:15
It can be more than three, but rarely, or it can be five, maybe. But anyway, the point is, first, you get very clear on their perspective. So I don’t talk with customers about outcomes or benefits or features, until we have a pretty good idea of what is going on in the customers minds, or the potential customers minds.

Peter Sandeen 26:34
This is also why I don’t usually even suggest we do any sort of interviews with customers, because when they’re your customers, they already have a very different perspective to what you sell, compared to someone who hasn’t already bought and used it.

Peter Sandeen 26:48
So that’s also I think, I mean, 99% of the time, people either don’t understand why they bought something, or if they do, they don’t tell you that honestly. So you can’t really trust what people say anyway.

Peter Sandeen 27:03
So you have to go about it in these very roundabout ways. And it’s usually better to talk with people who don’t yet know what you sell, then it can be useful. But it is still that you have to do it in very roundabout ways for it to be end up being effective.

Al McBride 27:17
It’s a very interesting point, when I was in the Innovation Academy, doing thesedesign, thinking training, so they did the training, and then later I facilitated on it. But when we had to literally reinvent, as mentioned earlier, the pram as Americans call it, the stroller. And I rang my friend who had a two or three year old.

Al McBride 27:36
And he said, I’ll give you the truth on it, because I’d asked people and they were all year with this thing that has a coffee cupola and all these different features and attributes. And what one thing lacked and the next stroller actually had solved, it was very confusing.

Al McBride 27:49
And he said, No, I’ll give you the lowdown on this is what people won’t tell you. So that’s, that’s all not not true. It’s not inaccurate. It’s all about image, think like cars, said it’s all brands. And oh, you roll up to the playground who was bought and, and their child’s McLaren awesome.

Al McBride 28:07
But he has a McLaren this. So he gave me the actual insight and what a huge load of the factors were. So as you said, people will tell you one thing, and it might be partly true. But as you rightly point out, it’s probably not the key buying decision, which is very interesting.

Al McBride 28:24
Yeah, and this is something you’ve alluded to before, and some of your previous writing is, is being almost more interested in the people who didn’t buy who were close to buying, but didn’t quite get over the line. So how do you get into that into that mindset? As I said, when when people don’t even know why they’re making half the decisions that they’re making?

Peter Sandeen 28:45
Well, one of the most useful things I’ve ever done is sent an email to everyone who didn’t buy or some promotion, and just asked like, hey, like, I know you didn’t want to buy it, that’s fine.

Peter Sandeen 28:55
I’m not going to try to change your mind. I just really value your opinion on why. And still 90% of the answers are either bullshit, or just not the whole truth. But you can usually read something between the lines, even when they’re not telling the truth, or not something useful.

Peter Sandeen 29:11
So if they just all say, well, it was too expensive. Well, I don’t think that’s usually the case. I mean, I can tell that it’s not actually that they couldn’t afford it, they just didn’t think it’s valuable enough. It wasn’t a big enough problem solving, or they didn’t understand that I solve also problem x and y and z. And percent of the time, they do actually give a very clear like, I didn’t think it would work in this sort of situation, or it didn’t feel like it would do this, or I already have this thing.

Peter Sandeen 29:38
So it seems like it’s overlapping. So then I know Okay, so I need to make clear why if you have that sort of a thing. It doesn’t actually like yes, there’s overlap, but it’s still very significant additional values or change the promotion.

Peter Sandeen 29:51
Or if it’s, well, if everyone’s saying it’s too expensive, then yeah, okay, think about pricing, but that’s never been really the case. So that’s one of the The most useful questions I ever ask and it is a very genuine question i i never reply and say, Oh, you’re wrong. Now, of course,

Al McBride 30:08
that’s their perspective, whether it’s the actual reason or not, as I said, that’s the, that’s the label on the reason that they’re giving you. And the rest.

Peter Sandeen 30:17
It’s a perspective they’re willing to share. Yes, yes. So something that I think the more honest people, especially if ever, I get an email back that says, Well, I wasn’t sure if you’re really know what you’re doing.

Peter Sandeen 30:30
I’m like, Okay, so what else do you say? Because you’re actually honest about that. Because most people don’t dare to say that. And I totally understand that if they haven’t known me for more than a week or more than a day or, okay, I don’t send that email after a day.

Peter Sandeen 30:42
But if they haven’t known me for many months, then like, it’s a pretty bold ask to think that, well, you should believe me, and you should commit to this sort of program. Yes, you can see others have gotten good results. But like, that’s still like a little iffy should you believe someone with you don’t know so much about.

Peter Sandeen 31:00
So I totally get that. But people don’t usually feel comfortable saying that. So the people who do start with that I paid way more attention to because it’s like, okay, you’re not too worried about my feelings. Okay, they might actually sold something else.

Peter Sandeen 31:13
That’s true as well. And of course, it might also be a sign that Well, I didn’t build enough credibility, and I should change the funnel and so on. But it is, like, if they say something that they shouldn’t say that social norms are saying that that’s not the sort of thing you’re supposed to say out loud, then yeah, they’re usually the most valuable feedback.

Al McBride 31:34
Absolutely, actually remind me I got a call from a charity that I used to support for 15 years, 12 years on this, and I changed the course of a little bit of controversy. But I changed to a different charity.

Al McBride 31:50
And I don’t give much I give what I can, but it’s a monthly subscription, anything. And I got a call yesterday from the people going, Oh, you know, you’re with us for this amount of time and, and you’re waiting for the sales pitch to get back on side.

Al McBride 32:04
And I said, Look, I’ll just stop you there. I said, Look, does this controversy wasn’t comfortable about it, it was one perspective. But I said, Can you tell me that and I moved to this other crowd who essentially guarantee an outcome per euro. Yep.

Al McBride 32:21
Now whether they’re massively inefficient, and it should be 50 cent is a different matter. The point is, I know for a year of this, this outcome, and that was why I moved over. And the other guy, of course, couldn’t, couldn’t actually wrestle with that he couldn’t, didn’t have a really a comeback to it.

Al McBride 32:40
And it is the perspective of, of just cutting through the niceties and giving them the actual reason and I could hear he was actually stumped a bit on the phone. The poor guy nearly fell, but I actually did feel a bit bad for him.

Al McBride 32:53
But because, you know, he was just doing his job. But it is that exact thing of course, cutting through the social niceties and being polite and diplomatic. But look, this is these are the reasons why I moved and there was wasn’t much he could say to to move me back, which was a shame. Yeah,

Peter Sandeen 33:08
I think usually sales guys get a script that answers all the usual bullshit answers, but they don’t know what to do. Because there is no script for what to do. When you ask an honest, direct question that well, your product has this problem I’ve understood or not, is there not this problem?

Peter Sandeen 33:25
You’re like, well, I’ve This is this, like you said that all this there was this controversy? Like? Can you say that it doesn’t happen again? Like, can you say I was wrong? No. Okay. So that’s my problem. change that and call again.

Peter Sandeen 33:38
Like, I’m very ruthless. When when I get telemarketer calls, I don’t enjoy it at all. So like, as soon as I figure out that they’re trying to sell something I just have like, so what are you selling? And usually, if it’s magazines, for example, I’m like, Yeah, no, I just, I have a principal, I don’t buy any magazines on the phone so that I can cut this short Have a nice day.

Peter Sandeen 33:57
Like, it’s, I don’t care what they’re selling. I just don’t want to waste the time listening to 100 pitches for finally finding one magazine that I might want to buy. The odds of me finding something useful that were just too bad. But

Al McBride 34:10
Yeah, like to have rules of thumb, they can save you an awful lot of time. Absolutely. Just go back to a point that you made earlier, when an awful lot of people say in their feedback, oh, the price was too high.

Al McBride 34:22
Now sometimes, as you said, when an awful lot of people and a great deal of people do that maybe you should be looking at the price. But most of the time, what’s actually going on is that you haven’t justified the price point and a clear value proposition or is it that they as you said don’t value the solution as much to them or what’s going on there?

Peter Sandeen 34:45
I think many possible reasons. One is that they’re not actually the target customer. And it can be very difficult to know that if you don’t personally talk with them. So the type of marketing I usually do doesn’t involve me calling them or having otherwise it direct conversation with them, but rather I do a webinar or a video or something, and then people don’t buy.

Peter Sandeen 35:06
And if they say that one, it was too expensive, I think one of the key options is that, well, they’re not trying to solve the problem that I offer would have solved. So it’s very hard for them to think that it’s a very high value now. And since I don’t try to push people into believing very, like really aggressively that like, forget all your other problems, this is the one you should fix, then that can happen quite easily.

Peter Sandeen 35:28
Obviously, I could do that I just really don’t feel comfortable with pushing people into believing that their problem is something else. I tried to help them see if that would be the case. Because often it is because they focus on the fundamentals.

Peter Sandeen 35:40
So the problems that they are experiencing are usually sort of down the line and ripple effects of having those fundamentals. Not quite right. Not having that perfect offer, not having a clear message or something.

Al McBride 35:52
Okay, so this idea of the presenting problem versus the underlying problem. And as he said that you sometimes you are trying to say, look, this is a result of this underlying problem that my thing can I address.

Peter Sandeen 36:04
Yeah. But if they are truly trying to do something totally different than what my thing helps with, then, obviously, it will seem like it’s too expensive, because it’s not a priority, it can also be that they’re looking for a different type of solution to the same problem.

Peter Sandeen 36:19
They feel that I would have to make it much cheaper so that they would be willing to do that. Often there. For example, let’s say I’ll use coaching as an example, if I would be selling coaching, the price tag is obviously four or five figures.

Peter Sandeen 36:32
If they’re looking for a book that teaches them how to do that, it’s very difficult to if they don’t have the like perception that coaching is infinitely more valuable, then why would they pay 100 times more or 1000 times more for something rather than the book, if they still assume they can find a book that solves the problem.

Peter Sandeen 36:52
I don’t think that’s usually the case. It’s a bad example in that way. But if people are looking for a certain type of solution, and you offer a different type of solution, then it can just look way too expensive, because they would have considered it if it was dirt cheap.

Peter Sandeen 37:08
But it wasn’t like if you’re a fancy restaurant, and people walk by and you ask why didn’t you come in, and they’re like, well, too expensive. So okay, well, they’re we’re heading to the nearest cheap pizza place. So like, it’s not that your solution wouldn’t work, they’re just not looking for that type of solution to their hunger in the moment.

Peter Sandeen 37:29
Obviously, a fancy restaurant isn’t really selling nutrition, it’s selling an experience and so on. But that’s a part of it. So if you realize that they don’t, they’re not looking for that type of solution, then either go for different target customers, who are looking for the experience of eating and fine dining, rather than try to convince people who are happy with the five euro pizza.

Al McBride 37:50
So it’s a good analogy, actually, it’s a good clarifier of an analogy, right enough. Just to take a slightly different perspective, now and change to the base of the interview a little bit.

Al McBride 38:08
Just talked me about some of some of your influences as you were gaining your skills and developing and honing your maybe more unique perspectives, Who were some of the great influences on that whether books or, or other people in the marketing space.

Al McBride 38:26
And that’s Linked in with if people want to improve their, as you said, an idea of their copywriting and offer development and messaging. So they want to do a bit of groundwork, maybe they’ll come to you maybe not, but at least have some of those foundations in place. Who made a big impact on you?

Peter Sandeen 38:46
Well, I think my parents impacted things a lot. Because they thought and I am still at least one of them thinks that marketing is more or less evil, right? So it created this perception that like, well, your marketing is about manipulating people into buying something they don’t really need or want or benefit from.

Peter Sandeen 39:05
And like, when I started to get interested, I was sort of thinking like, it took me a long time to realize that what I was thinking about his marketing, because what I was thinking about is, well, I have this thing to sell, how do I help people who would really value it? Who would really be so happy with getting it?

Peter Sandeen 39:22
How do I reach them? How do I get them to see they can get it from me? Because there’s not many other people who would do that. So how do I and then suddenly, all right, that’s marketing do go a long time.

Peter Sandeen 39:33
But that was I think the biggest thing that it really changed what direction I was coming from, because I wasn’t coming at all from the like, well, let’s learn marketing, but rather I have a service, nothing to do with business, just a service to sell people who would get it are very happy with it.

Peter Sandeen 39:49
So how do I reach them and then I started doing marketing without even thinking of it as marketing. So when I then started to get to marketing, that was sort of the perspective all the time. I got into copywriting fairly soon.

Peter Sandeen 40:02
And I took a course from Americans, writers associates, I don’t know why I think it’s the name. And they had a copywriting course was, that was like a very good copywriting course. But I think you could have read it in two very different ways either as learn to manipulate people into buying whatever, or learn to sell something that’s truly useful help people really see how valuable it would be for the right person.

Peter Sandeen 40:29
And at the same time, push away those who wouldn’t. Or maybe I just added that there. But I had this feeling that like, I have no interest in trying to sell to people who wouldn’t actually want to buy it, if they’ve just understood what it is, I’m not trying to make them think it is something else than it is.

Al McBride 40:45
And that goes back to our discussion on the expert panel there recently where it was very much thought that for you guys, the three of you very much were in consensus about was this just this idea that it’s a way of serving of giving value, but to the right people who can use that value.

Al McBride 41:04
Whereas I think an awful lot of people get into a mess or a little bit of ethical or moral quandary when they have the feeling and it’s precisely as you pointed out, I think that they feel guilty that they’re not going to be giving the value if it’s not the right customer.

Al McBride 41:20
Because as you said, if the client, if it’s not the right fit, then they won’t get the value from it, maybe that’s why you’re feeling a bit crappy evoucher trying to flog them something they don’t really need. So it’s a very interesting one.

Al McBride 41:33
That just in more so of that a little bit in the persuasion, but also then relevant people who are having to negotiate or having to just create any sort of agreements or consensus or bring people on site to their their way of thinking, what advice would you give to someone around dealing with people or making agreements?

Al McBride 41:53
As I said, winning people over to your way of thinking, like me in terms of, I mean, I know you don’t do negotiation, per se, but you do a great deal of joint ventures and you have a you’re very well respected across your peers? What are some of the factors that you could give people advice on how to have a similar situation?

Peter Sandeen 42:16
Well, I would look at it, just like any other marketing thing, I would look at what who’s the target customer? And what is their perspective to what you’re doing? Right simplifying things. Yeah, you have to do some process for everything.

Peter Sandeen 42:28
But yeah, once you understand who they are, and how they are viewing your situation, whether it is a group of people, or just a single individual that you’re targeting, specifically, especially in high ticket sales, I mean, super high ticket sales, you might just have like individual customers, and you’re going after 10 different people in a year.

Peter Sandeen 42:46
I mean, you can put in the effort to understand what’s that? What are their preferences? Or what are their concerns? What are they pained by? What are they worried or fearful off? What would they want to be seen as?

Peter Sandeen 43:00
Or how do they see themselves like whatever you can figure out about how they see what you’re going to talk about? And then figure out what’s the connection? Is there a connection? Like, can you actually truthfully present your product or service as a genuine solution to something truly meaningful for them?

Peter Sandeen 43:17
If not, then like just look for someone else, it’s probably not worth the trouble to try to convince someone to buy something they don’t actually want or will value. But if you do see that, okay, here’s the connection, like if they can see that, this helps with paints, X, Y, and Z and solves that ABC problem and so on, then that’s all you need to try to do.

Peter Sandeen 43:37
Just help them see that. And then how you do that obviously, depends on the context, but narrow it down to just the most impactful things. I mean, it’s obviously a guess, to some degree, what are the most impactful things?

Peter Sandeen 43:50
But start from trying to understand their perspective? And what would be truly meaningful for them? And if you’re selling to a company, and you’re thinking No, no, that it’s a company I sell to, and it’s humans, you still sell to? You can think of them as individual humans, even if there’s many of them, but it’s never some company entity that buys it is the individuals in there. Because that’s how I would approach it

Al McBride 44:12
It’s a very good approach, and particularly with the b2b piece of advice there because as you said, that’s the common excuse that Oh, doesn’t work might work in business, b2c, but it won’t work in b2b.

Al McBride 44:23
But I think that your hit on something even more profound there is that often it doesn’t work it often approaches and b2b fall flat precisely because they lack the human regard the basic respect, you know, in, in negotiation, you call it emotional payments, and basically it’s just any acknowledgement of respect on a spectrum of, of regard.

Al McBride 44:50
And people often forget it, as you say, because they they talk to the person as if they’re talking to a company, some sort of big entity, yeah. Other than any

Peter Sandeen 44:59
It can work. And that’s I think, why it’s lingers around all along. Because it can work. If you’re selling something that a company, like the type you’re targeting will consider every three years, then if you just bombard them with your messages every once every month for at least five years, you will at least once hit them at the time when they’re considering it.

Peter Sandeen 45:21
And it can move things along. That just means that you’ll be considered among the other 58 different options who have for 770 different options, people who have been bombarding them for years. And then I mean, good luck there, you will sometimes make a sale and it can work.

Peter Sandeen 45:39
It’s just unbelievably inefficient. There are cases where it might still be the most efficient way. I’m not saying it’s always an inefficient option, but I have yet to see any of those cases. So I’m just saying it’s possible, it is the most efficient way, I just highly doubt that it would be.

Peter Sandeen 45:57
But that’s sort of why it can work, that they are always approached by only people who see them as a company and sell to them as a company and not as individuals. But usually if there’s one who understands that they are still humans and approaches them based on that, and I think the most obvious example is this comes up fairly often in b2b that what is the buyers concern is how much time it will take from them?

Peter Sandeen 46:22
Or how will they personally see be seen company as an entity doesn’t give a shit. Like their the time they will put into it, or how they will be perceived inside of the company is not the company’s concern.

Peter Sandeen 46:36
But the decision maker can still be extremely concerned with how many hours of their own time will go into this. And all the hassles of training people or getting people on board or integration or whatever it is, or how much of a personal risk to their ego it is to try something especially if it’s an unusual thing. Like, am I going to take the risk to buy this thing?

Peter Sandeen 46:59
Because if it backfires, then everyone’s going to tell me that I was an idiot for trying something like this, because there was that totally safe, traditional option. Like I know, it’s it’s terrible compared to this assuming this works.

Peter Sandeen 47:11
But am I willing to take that risk, because I don’t actually make any more money, I don’t get any recognition, unless it’s an absolute stroke of brilliance to go for this. So the risk calculation for the decision maker can look very different than some sort of an ROI calculation that proves that the company will benefit.

Al McBride 47:31
And this reminds me of a stat where an awful lot of I think it was the study was in the UK where a lot of people, you know, they were encouraged to hundreds of companies were encouraged to pretty much interview some of their longest customers and say, Well, you know, what made you choose us?

Al McBride 47:49
Was it our fantastic this are fantastic that I literally about 80% of them said, Oh no, like literally the flyer came in the door. And I turned around and said we need a new photocopier. And the lady holding the mail said, Oh, these guys sell photo copiers.

Al McBride 48:04
And that’s why you have the contract to do the photocopiers. You know, it’s exactly as you said, it’s like when the need is there, what options Okay, boom, you you you’ll do, right. Which is fine.

Al McBride 48:17
If you’re selling paper or photocopiers or that kind of thing. When it’s like we need this solution, you do it great done. When there’s any kind of innovative element or risk element, it’s a completely different animal. But it’s also a point around relationships.

Al McBride 48:33
And around robustness of deals or what you might call normal people would call it you know, customer loyalty essentially. Say, whenever anything goes wrong, it’s like, oh, we’re sick of them move on to the next crowd. There’s no loyalty there whatsoever, because there’s no relationship there. So it’s exactly if you start

Peter Sandeen 48:51
off with a good relationship, usually when things go wrong, because they do sometimes go wrong

Al McBride 48:57
evitable. So

Peter Sandeen 48:59
if you can’t then somehow negotiate your way out of it so that everyone’s happy at the end, then something was wrong from the beginning. Or maybe you’re just terrible at conflict resolution, or you’re dealing with an absolute pain if a person but generally speaking, yeah.

Peter Sandeen 49:15
I would argue that no matter what you sell us, probably still, in most cases still should take a more personal approach. Not that it couldn’t work. Just send a flyer every week to every company in the industry, like who might be a customer eventually and hope that eventually they want to photocopier and loudly proclaim it so that the Secretary who’s holding the flyer can be like, hey, they do.

Peter Sandeen 49:39
But that’s an awful lot of coincidence. Whereas if you do approach it in a more personal way, and it doesn’t mean that it wouldn’t scale. I mean, I do this and I don’t ever do cold calls.

Peter Sandeen 49:49
I don’t ever send fliers. I don’t do any of that stuff. And it’s still it scales perfectly well to basically infinity. I mean practically to like further than I could handle as a business. But yeah, like I view it as there are people and if you understand what they actually want and how your offer matches, and what is it that you need to say, so that they connect the dots, then the rest is relatively easy.

Peter Sandeen 50:15
I’m not saying that you couldn’t get much better results with, by brilliantly using Facebook ads compared to just sort of winging it. But if you’re talking to the wrong people, they won’t work.

Peter Sandeen 50:26
If you’re selling them something they don’t want to buy, it’s gonna be really hard, even if you do it brilliantly. And if your messaging is terrible, again, you can’t compensate for that by being great at Facebook ads, or blogging, or social media or webinars or whatever.

Al McBride 50:39
This is a brilliant insight. It just in that sense of the first of all the fundamentals, which you stated the very start that they’re what you’re all about. But also just in as you say, the the fractal nature of it, whether you’re having a conversation with a colleague or a spouse. It’s you know it all the way up to, as you say, doing a joint venture or doing a big negotiation, or, you know, selling to business to business or whatever that is.

Al McBride 51:07
It’s the same fundamentals of having the right offer, with the right messaging to the right, to the right ears, you might say, or eyes if the case may be. So it just to how how would that still consistent through all those different different situations, which as you say, people very quickly make complex, maybe overly complex. But, but it is, it is a brilliant, a brilliant, fundamental to get people’s heads around

Peter Sandeen 51:39
I think most topics are like that, you can simplify them down to the fundamentals of that topic. And in most cases, if you don’t get the fundamentals right, then it doesn’t matter what else you do, it will not work very well.

Peter Sandeen 51:54
So whatever skill you’re trying to learn, for example, there are probably like the three most important things you should focus on. And someone who’s really an expert in the topic could probably tell that, like, if you don’t learn these three things, it doesn’t matter if you learn everything else, because you won’t be able to do it.

Peter Sandeen 52:09
Like I like claiming, he wouldn’t learn X, Y, and Z, it doesn’t matter. If you learn everything else, you’re still not going to climb very hard. It’s like whatever skill. I mean, I can think through all the skills I’ve ever learned. And I can boil them down to a few things.

Peter Sandeen 52:25
I usually call them linchpin skills, I send the few things that you have to learn that you cannot really compensate for. Because no matter how well you do everything else, it will not compensate for those issues.

Peter Sandeen 52:36
And I think the common problem is that this is so obvious that people just bypass it, if you miss a little think that, of course we’re talking to the right people, they obviously would value what we sell, or like they would obviously benefit from what we sell, right? Of course, our offer is amazing, because it works. Like First of all, that’s not what an offer is a good offer. It has to work. Yes, but that that doesn’t make it great.

Al McBride 52:59
I tend to use the analogy of languages, you know, people sort of go you need to learn grammar. Yes, you do need to learn grammar, but you need the core 400 600 1200 words in the language and used in a roughly the right grammatical way to be understood.

Al McBride 53:19
If you don’t have those core 400 words, you can’t communicate competently in that language. And it’s it for me, it’s always been this development between training and learning.

Al McBride 53:30
Training, being you know, definitive outcome idea, like a training course, you need to tick these boxes, versus learning being a much more open, expensive thing. But I think it is the problem for an awful lot of people that, unlike a language where you can literally Google what are the 400 most commonly used words in English or German or Japanese or whatever, and you got a list and Okay, you need to be able to use them on this contract, cultural context and so on.

Al McBride 53:59
But essentially with those, then then you’re flying if you know those you’ve done good foundation a good start. It’s more complicated when you don’t know what those core fundamental attributes that you need are.

Peter Sandeen 54:13
Yep. Right. Yeah. And that’s really like marketing can be boiled down in many different ways. Like I barely down all the way to what I would consider the fundamentals. But then again, if you really want to, you can go even deeper and be like, well, what, what sort of topic are you even building a business around?

Peter Sandeen 54:32
But like, assuming you have some general sense of what you’re doing, then I think the fundamentals are the target customer offer message. But then if you go to, let’s say, advertising, you have very similar things. But then there’s also Well, where do you place the ad becomes a very important thing.

Peter Sandeen 54:48
It’s still sort of well, who says it and what you’re offering and so on, but, but there starts to be other things as well. Or in let’s say, a webinar, it’s often about well, what sort of story do you tell like, don’t do To stories get the right ideas across, you still have to get the fundamentals right, you have to talk to people who want to buy something they like offer something they want and like messaging and so on.

Peter Sandeen 55:09
But you can boil things down to sort of different levels of fundamentals. But almost any topic can be done like that. But yeah, as you pointed out with the language, it is relatively straightforward. Just Google, what are the 400 most common words in a language and memorize those and learn to use those?

Peter Sandeen 55:26
In most skills? It’s not that simple. And that’s what I keep referring to the idea of ask a few experts what they would consider, or ask someone who is specifically focused on the fundamentals May I mean, you have better odds of them knowing it. And especially if they’re not in in it for selling something.

Peter Sandeen 55:45
So if you ask a Facebook ads expert, what are the core things about marketing, they might say Facebook, even though it’s can be completely useless for a lot of companies, it’s you don’t have to even know what Facebook is and still build a successful business. But,

Al McBride 56:00
yeah, very good. Well, it seems to keep boiling down sooner or later to, as you said, getting the fundamentals right. And when they’re in place, then once they’re up to a certain standard and a certain accuracy, then everything else can be great. It can be good enough, and you’ll do just fine.

Al McBride 56:21
But as he said, when people don’t have those fundamentals, then there’s you’re moving deckchairs around the Titanic, as I say that it’s a ship that’s not going to sail. So Peter, thank you very much for all of your insights and your gems. It’s been a great conversation.

Peter Sandeen 56:40
Thank you

Al McBride 56:40
hope you enjoyed it.

Peter Sandeen 56:42
I did.

Al McBride 56:43
And thank you very much. I’ll talk to you again soon. Cheers. Cheers.

Al McBride
So I hope you got a lot of value out of that interview with Peter. I know I certainly did. Again, I hope you can see that just as we were saying before, the level of clarity he has in thinking and problem solving approach is really second to none.

Al McBride
I can wholeheartedly recommend Peter’s work, but the amount of fantastic information he gives for free on his website is really quite astounding. Peter sandeen, that’s petersandeen.com and when we’re talking about some of the freebies, I might recommend, particularly recommend the three mistakes that marketing pros recommend.

Al McBride
Because that’s one of those things and it gives a good sense of his his unique perspective, his unique take on things, and why an awful lot of things that marketing pros recommend, often really don’t they fall short or they just don’t work. And he’ll tell you why.

Al McBride
That’s right there on the homepage, on PeterSandeen.com but he has quite a lot of other great resources around his website completely for free, as our as I said his Friday scribbles which he does on a weekly basis. So sign up for that.

Al McBride
It’s a little video or a series of videos and he has lots of other great free resources on his website. If you want extra insight and a lot of things you probably haven’t heard before, if you’re even if you’re fairly experienced with marketing, PetersonSandeen.com is the place to go so I can’t recommend it enough.

Al McBride
And as I said is Friday scribbles are entertaining, they’re enlightening, they’re light, but they also have tremendous value. So it’s something I read on a regular basis and I really recommend that you do too. So thanks again to Peter and see you again soon.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai