Unlocking the Power of “No”: The Surprising Path to Achieving Your Goals with Andrea Waltz #064

Show Notes:

Andrea Waltz is the co-founder of Courage Crafters, Inc. and co-author of the best-selling book, Go for No! Yes is the Destination, No is How You Get There.

For almost two decades, Andrea has been teaching people in virtually every business and industry how to think and feel differently about failure, rejection, and the word, “no” to achieve their goals and dreams. A member of one of the highest regarded professional groups of women in sales, Women Sales Pros, Andrea is considered a top sales influencer online.

The book, Go for No! reached #1 on Amazon’s “Sales & Selling” list in 2010, and has remained in the top 50 Sales books for the last 13 years, selling over a half million copies.

Topics explored:

  • Avoidant behaviours for sales calls, for following up leads, anywhere people face potential rejection
  • The biggest trap in waiting for the right opportunity, perfect time or perfect person
  • How many ‘no’s’ in a seven day period?
  • Set the number of no’s and don’t worry about the yeses
  • How no’s open up possibilities in your thinking and approach
  • The art of asking
  • How to react when you get a ‘no’



Unknown Speaker 0:00

Al McBride 0:03
welcome to the dealing with Goliath podcast. The mission of dealing with Goliath is to sharpen the psychological edge in negotiation, ethical influencing and high impact conversations for business leaders who want to be more effective under pressure, uncover hidden value, and build greater connection, all while increasing profitability. With expert guests across the business spectrum we deliver gems of wisdom, delving into their methods their thinking and approach to business life and problem solving. This is the short form espresso shot of insight podcast interview to boost business performance using our five questions in a roundabout 15 minutes format.

My guest today is Andrea waltz Andre is the co founder of courage crafters, Inc. and co author of the best selling book go for know yes as the destination know is how you get there. For almost two decades, Andrew has been teaching people in virtually every business and industry how to think and feel differently about failure, rejection and the word know to achieve their goals and dreams.

A member of one of the highest regarded professional groups of women in sales, women sales pros, Andrea’s considered a top sales influencer online, the book go for no reach number one in Amazon’s sales and selling list in 2010. And has remained in the top 50 sales books. The last 13 years selling over half a million copies. Wowzers Andreea Welcome to the show. Thank you so much for coming on.

Andrea Waltz 1:34
Well, it is my pleasure, Alistair, I’m so glad to be with you.

Al McBride 1:37
Thank you. Yeah. And I said to you just earlier, there was a lot of reasons I reached out to you, I, I love your philosophy. I love your approach. So let’s dive straight into it. So who is your ideal client on what’s the biggest challenge that they tend to face?

Andrea Waltz 1:52
So I have two kind of answers to that those the exact ideal client one is anyone who has to sell anything for a living. That sounds kind of broad, but typically, it’s a b2b salesperson or a b2c. So salesperson, b2b or b2c? Sorry. And then the I guess the second piece to that client would be anyone who leads a team of those people. So it’s fundamentally sales people, though.

Al McBride 2:19
Very good, very good. So they’re, they’re struggling with some of those difficulties that you mentioned on your website that as you said, they’re often not following up or clients are not having some of those what they perceive as difficult conversations. It’s not usually the trap, they find them. Usually avoidant behaviors, if you want to use kind of coaching language.

Andrea Waltz 2:41
That’s well said. Yes, avoidant behavior. So procrastination and selling because they feel like they, they will just get to know they don’t want to experience the rejection, avoiding following up on potential leads, any kind of business building activity, income producing activity, where people have to face a possible rejection, or they have to possibly hear the word no. And so that’s why salespeople are really my ideal client.

But you know, even entrepreneurs even I mean, if you’re fundraising, if you’re going after guests on your podcast, whatever the case may be, you have to ask for things and you are going to get rejected. And so I try not to go too broad, I try to focus it, you know, narrow it down, because obviously, the more narrow you can be, I think, the more likelihood that you aren’t to be successful in business.

Al McBride 3:36
Absolutely, absolutely. And when mostly they salespeople but sometimes entrepreneurs as well, as you say, when what are the common mistakes they make when they’re trying to solve that problem?

Andrea Waltz 3:49
Well, the probably the biggest mistake is in just waiting for the right opportunity, right moment, in order to make an ask. So dragging their feet waiting, waiting, excuse me, making assumptions. So in other words, telling, telling themselves a story, like they think they know what this person will spend. They think they know what this person will do. And so as a result, they wait and do nothing.

Because they figure well, if I can wait it out, somehow things will change. Somehow the rejected rejection will get easier. If I put it off, it’ll get easier when it’s later. And of course, that’s just not true. The other issue with that is that with the assumptions that that people make, like about what they think is going to happen, a lot of those assumptions are based on nothing. They’re just made up stories. And so the the waiting the procrastination and the made up stories, all lead to a situation where the person doesn’t ask.

They don’t get a yes, they don’t get a no so they have no idea what’s really happening. And then what happens is kind of the final piece to this, which is just kind of creates a almost self perpetuating negative spiral is that it gets scarier and scarier to make that ask then then it seems like oh, I’ve waited this long. I haven’t asked for the raise, or I haven’t, haven’t asked for the sale.

And now the fear goes up the concern the worry, and then it becomes even harder to do. So it’s really becomes this cycle of that, that salespeople get themselves in, in relationship to that. And so we’ve got to stop that cycle from happening, remove those assumptions, and really get people to take action.

Al McBride 5:46
Excellent. I love that there’s so much to unpack there. I particularly loved it was, first of all my immediate thought when you were saying that are people waiting for the perfect time in inverted commas, that part of the problem? Yes,

Andrea Waltz 5:59
they’re waiting for the perfect time. In some cases, they’re waiting for the perfect person. So they may just, it’s this person isn’t right, this person is not ideal. And so instead of instead of learning instead of practicing, it’s kind of like, you know, if you’re looking for the perfect job, but you say, well, there is a job I could go interview for but I probably just get rejected for it.

Well, why don’t you go get get some experience under your belt have the experience of doing it? And if you do get rejected no big deal on if you do get a yes, well, then you ended up with right, then you ended up with the job. So that that absolutely is the case.

Al McBride 6:38
It’s a very interesting point you make as well there that by not doing it in a timely manner, but earlier in the process, or getting those multiple yeses or nose by asking those questions, that it gets bigger and bigger in the stakes. And in the in the nervousness, which of course, you know, an awful lot of the connection, particularly people in sales or when they’re negotiating is their emotional state.

So that, you know, it’s like desperation was never very attractive or appealing, you know, in any sort of context. So when they’re nervous, and as you said, maybe getting very feeling that that pressure, it’s not good anyway. So getting in there early and practiced, it makes a huge difference.

Absolutely. Absolutely. So what might be one valuable free action that you that the audience can implement that will help them with this issue? What do you advise them to do just even maybe not solving the problem but at least moving them in the right trajectory?

Andrea Waltz 7:37
So it’s a really counterintuitive strategy it’s probably the heart of implementing go for no kind of there’s two pieces one is just simply to create a no awareness. So take a look at maybe a seven day period and really look at how many noes Are you getting like Do you hear no ever or do you play it so safe that you never hear? No, you only hear yes so you’re not making any assets that are above and beyond you’re not taking any chances you’re not taking any risks.

And then the next piece of that is once you kind of examine and see where you are is to start taking action and that is by setting a goal for the number of noes you are going to collect we call this a no goal so we all typically set yes goals in business right? It’s like we want to go the yes goal is I want to make $100,000 This year, or I want to get 10 clients this year 10 Customers whatever.

Those are really easy to measure. Those are typical yes goals setting a no goal would be I want to hear 15 nose this year to x offer. I’m going to go I’m going to send in 30 resumes and I want to get to 10 potential you know interviews or I’m going to set a no goal to raise this much money, fundraising whatever it is. So you set this number of noes and in the process you don’t worry about the yeses if you get your yes goal if you get your 10 clients if you make your $100,000 whatever you just you keep going because if you committed to that yes goal or excuse me, you committed to that no goal.

That’s what you want to do. So the the recommendation that we always have for no goals is break it down into weekly increments, and then even better daily increments so it varies for a lot of people I’ve had people tell me that they’ve tried to get 100 nose in a month, which is a tremendous amount. But even Alastair, I like to ask this question what would happen to your business?

If you simply got to one ask doesn’t matter what category it’s in one know a day. What like an apple a day keeps the doctor wait one no a day. What would happen in 365 days in one year? If you got one no day how many of those noes would end up being yeses that you probably wouldn’t have asked because again, you’re, you’re too focused on fear, you’re making assumptions.

You’re trying to protect yourself. And so setting a no goal, whether it’s one a day or 10 a week, whatever it is, is the fastest way to implement it go for no. And then when you if you achieve that, that no goal, then you need to celebrate make sure that you celebrate that’s the final piece.

Al McBride 10:24
Very important. I have to agree with a huge amount there. Andrew, you have to celebrate the wins. But I love that because you’re putting a gauge of sorts on effort on implementation.

Andrea Waltz 10:38
Exactly. It’s very behavioral focused. So it goes. So go for know is both a mindset. The mindset says, I need to be willing to hear no more often in order to get to success. It’s a failure way to success mindset. If you want to hear yes, more, you have to be willing to hear no more. The implementation part is set a goal for the number of noes you’re going to collect

Al McBride 11:01
salutely, it’s the code the lead and the lag. You know that you can’t control what the other person says. But you can control how many people you ask. Can also so I love that it brings in that controller brings in makes them implementers. And as you said, I don’t know, you have me thinking now what would the state of my business be in effect, because getting to know every day, I might just have my postures start doing that. Actually, it takes

Andrea Waltz 11:29
a while. And it’s funny because what you do is you start you start looking your brain starts getting creative, right? You start saying now wait a minute, because should I maybe I should go back to my best customer and ask them if they would like additional products or services. Maybe I should follow up on that person that told me no. Two months ago, maybe I should go back to that person and see how they’re doing and see if maybe now’s a good time for them to say yes. So it gets your forces your brain to start being creative.

Al McBride 11:58
Absolutely. I love this. Because in some of my own private, my own work with clients, I often challenged them to do to think outside cliche, think outside the box, but ask questions you wouldn’t normally do. So if you’re one of the challenges going into, you know, a fast food restaurant or somewhere like that, where you think I can’t ask for a discount, ask for discount? Because the worst I can say is that no.

But you wouldn’t be amazed the amount of people that go Oh, yeah, we have the special offer on this week. And they go Oh, right, brilliant. And you get 20% off for this thing for free or whatever. But they wouldn’t mention that they have no volunteer that information. But when you ask in a pleasant and respectful manner, all the rest of it. But it’s amazing how many how often people say, either yes, or well, not in that way. But we can do this thing. How does that work out for you? You know,

Andrea Waltz 12:52
some amazing and you and then you think why didn’t they just share that? But that’s not you know, they don’t? They don’t? They don’t ask, you don’t ask. And their goal is not to necessarily I mean, you have to fight for that. That’s on you.

Al McBride 13:06
Exactly, exactly. This is something in innovation methodology, which is very important. And I love that because just like your nose, it’s like if you’re not failing enough, you’re not trying hard enough, or you’re not being innovative enough. But it’s the same in a going the other way of, of when they say no, I love that. Like, that’s just an indicator of a new conversation.

So don’t don’t get mad, get curious or don’t get sad, get curious such as exactly this to where you just go. Well, that’s interesting. Can you tell me why that is? Or for what reason? That’s the case, you know, and then you learn, you know, you’re learning. So it’s excellent stuff. It’s excellent. So, so. So what it might be one valuable free resource that you could direct people to that will help them with this with this process with this issue.

Andrea Waltz 13:53
So one fun thing people can do is come to our website at go for no.com forward slash quiz. And we have a 20 question assessment that people can take to see where they are currently in their mindset and thinking around failure or rejection and hearing the word no. It’s a great place to start. Because even in taking a quiz, it will show you how you may be thinking of things kind of in the old model of, hey, I want to avoid failure. I want to see I want success. I want to avoid failure. I want more yeses I want to avoid no taking this quiz will help you see where you are and maybe allow you to start working on some of those things.

Al McBride 14:36
That’s sounds excellent. That sounds excellent. Because just a question on that. Do you find that an awful lot of people when they do that quiz realize that maybe they fear rejection or the fear that no more than they thought they did?

Andrea Waltz 14:49
Absolutely that and the quizzes were really tricky. I’m just telling you right now, this is not an easy, it is a reverse some of the words are double negatives. So you have to really I read it carefully to say like, Okay, what is the saying? Because we didn’t make it easy. And and we did that intentionally so that people would when they go back and read their answers, say, Oh, I, I’m my success rate is actually it’s so high that I what I’m doing is I’m actually not taking enough risks. And I’m not hearing no more because my success rate is this high. And so we asked a question about, you know, do you are you really successful? Do you have a high success rate? And people say like, yes, and they’ll think that’s good. And it turns out, that’s a bad answer.

Al McBride 15:37
Okay. Because they’re sitting on their laurels a little bit.

Yes. Makes sense. See complacency and complacent?

Yeah, they’ve stopped growing a little bit. Okay. It’s a very, very interesting observation. Really good one. So probably the last question, but what is the one question I should have asked you, that would be of great value to our audience.

Andrea Waltz 16:01
This is my favorite question. I think it is of great value. The question that you could have asked, you’d have asked is, what’s the best response to a no?

Al McBride 16:11
Yes, of course. So let’s get in there, because we have looked into that approach and all that. So I’m dying to hear what best responds to it. Oh,

Andrea Waltz 16:20
so the first of all, your brain interprets a no as bad. And your brain also interprets a no as as almost close to death, because your brain is trying to protect you. And we’re biologically wired to avoid rejection and to fear rejection. And this isn’t a normal, natural, you know, way to be that’s, that’s how we’re all biologically wired. Because to be rejected 1000s of years ago, meant death, you know, you were if you got thrown out of the tribe, you’re hunting and gathering on your own, you’re, you know, you’re out in the cold, and that was certain death.

So the first, when you get that know, the first response has to be to stop very quickly to shut down any negative thinking that you might have, we have a tendency when we get to know, to catastrophize and say, Oh, no, this is terrible. Or oh, I’m, I’m awful, I’m not going to make it. And I’m a terrible salesperson, or whatever. And so we got to you, we can’t stop the thought from happening. If it goes too fast, or the thoughts are just within microseconds, just so fast.

But as soon as we notice them, got to shut that down and say, Wait a minute, no, is just an answer. I got an answer. That’s a good thing. What’s my next move? And so your response that you need to be thinking in your head is, this is a good thing. I am successful people, ask questions successful people make asks, So reinforce that you did the right thing. And then ask yourself the question, What’s my next move? What can I do next? So how can I maybe continue to build a relationship with this person?

Or maybe if it’s just a quick funny thing, like you’re at at the driving or something, you know, drive thru at the fast food place asking for a discount, just say, Hey, I asked I, I built this is how I’m building my confidence, and then just let it go. Right? Just my next move is I’m just going to let it go. I’m not going to feel bad about or embarrassed or ashamed of getting a no. So the thoughts, the response to uh, no needs to be positive, it needs to be as quick as you as as quick and fast as you can catch it.

Al McBride 18:27
Outstanding. I love that. I love that getting out of the fear response. Getting into as I said, more of that growth mindset. But this is literally the applied theory here. So absolutely brilliant stuff. So yes, So Andrea, thank you so much for coming on the show everyone who rejoice go for no.com and where it can, most people should go to the website. Where else can people find you on LinkedIn perhaps? Or I’m Yes,

Andrea Waltz 18:54
I’m on LinkedIn. And I think if you type in go for no on LinkedIn, you’ll even find me and Twitter and Facebook. I’m well branded. So if you type in go for No, you I’m the only person out there talking about no all the time.

Al McBride 19:08
Absolutely. And if I have a read of a website, and if you think Andrea, you like her tone if you’d like her style, get the book on Amazon. Its book is only going to do that well for that long if it seriously delivers so please reach out and grab that. Okay, thank you so much, Andrea.

Andrea Waltz 19:25
Thanks Alistair. My pleasure.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai


Andrea Waltz’s website: https://www.goforno.com/

Andrea’s Go For No Quiz: www.goforno.com/quiz

Andrea Waltz’s, Amazon Page

Amazon Kindle: Go for No! Yes is the Destination, No is How You Get There, Andrea Waltz

YouTube: GoForNo

Andrea’s Go for No Store: https://shop.goforno.com/

Connect with Andrea

Andrea on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/goforno/

Andrea on Twitter: https://twitter.com/goforno

Andrea on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/GoforNo/

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If you’re interested in more, visit almcbride.com/minicourse for a free email minicourse on how to gain the psychological edge in your negotiations and critical conversations along with a helpful negotiation prep cheat sheet.

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