Dov Gordon under the radar leader

Dov Gordon: Become An Under the Radar Leader in Your Industry (Dealing with Goliath Podcast #027)

Show Notes:

Dov Gordon helps consultants get ideal clients by becoming “under-the-radar” leaders in their industry. You can find him at

On a personal note you are a trusted friend and mentor to so many people that are impressive and admirable to me and that have been very good to me in support and guidance. So it’s a pleasure to finally get to meet and talk with you.

Topics explored:

  • Corporate refugees assume getting clients will be easier than it is
  • The distraction of bright shiny objects
  • Simple, thoughtful direction to everything you do
  • Get really clear on exactly what problem you solve
  • Do your clients feel you understand the conversation in their head?
  • First you need to win their attention
  • Free speech is the foundational human right
  • The humility to say ‘I don’t know everything’
  • No one right way
  • Ascribe positive intent
  • Mimicry does not bring mastery
  • It’s all about relationships
  • As experts we’re still learning
  • Beware the guru on the pedestal
  • The fear of doing mediocre work


Al McBride 0:06
Welcome to the dealing with Goliath podcast. The mission of dealing with Goliath is to sharpen the psychological edge in business leaders with skin in the game, who want to be more effective under pressure, uncover hidden value and increase profitability.

Al McBride 0:20
With expert guests across the business spectrum, we deliver gems of wisdom delving into their methods, their thinking, and approach to business life and problem solving. This is the double espresso shot of insight through our short interview format, where a quick and concise with five questions in about nine minutes.

Al McBride 0:39
I’m your host, Al McBride and my guest today is Dov Gordon. Dov Gordon helps consultants get ideal clients by becoming under the radar leaders in their industry. And you can find much more about him our profitable

Al McBride 0:56
On a personal note, I have to say, Dov is a trusted friend and mentor to so many people that are impressive and admirable to me. And that have been a huge support and guidance to me over the last few years. That he’s sort of a mentor, his mentor, if you will. So I’m absolutely thrilled and very pleased to have him on the show today. So Dov welcome. Great to have you here.

Dov Gordon 1:19
Thank you Al. Appreciate it. Good to be here.

Al McBride 1:22
I’m very glad to have you’re very glad to have you here. So let’s kick off. So who is your ideal client, and what’s the biggest challenge that they face?

Dov Gordon 1:31
My ideal client is usually somebody who’s really good at what they do. Master their craft. Could be they’ve done really well as a corporate executive. And then they decided it’s time to leave or perhaps or a corporate refugee as a consequence of COVID.

Dov Gordon 1:49
And they are looking for, you know, a simple, clean, repeatable system that helps them get ideal clients consistently. And I’d say they’re not really interested in putting themselves out there as the celebrity type, the guru type, really, they just want to be free to do great work with great clients and make a great income. And that’s, that’s what it is

Al McBride 2:13
That I that sounds ideal. Yeah, as you say, you don’t want to try and be something that you’re not you just want to excel and you want to serve people, I hear you here. So what are some of those common mistakes people make when they’re trying to solve that problem?

Dov Gordon 2:29
Well, I think a lot of people just assume that getting clients is going to be a lot easier than it is I know, I did. I think most people do. They figure Well, I’m really good at what I do. I did really well in the corporate world, I you know, just hang up a shingle or digital shingle or whatever it might be.

Dov Gordon 2:44
And I’ll get clients. And turns out it’s not nearly that simple, really not. And then usually the next mistake is running after all the shiny objects, the the technological shale, the fancy approaches, and completely missing the fundamentals the foundation.

Dov Gordon 3:05
So yeah, you could focus on becoming a Facebook ads Ninja drive people to a evergreen webinar or whatever might be. You could become a content marketing machine, which few people want to be.

Dov Gordon 3:18
A lot of it ends up just being noise. You could rebrand, you can publish a book, all of which are good things to do. All those are good things to do. And I it’s just that they have to be done in in a framework. It has to be part of a thoughtful, simple directions that everything you’re doing adds up. Otherwise, everything you’re doing takes you in a different direction. And that’s really where most people end up, overwhelmed, diffused, and confused,

Al McBride 3:48
and frustrated. And I think you’re speaking to a lot of people here who’ve been through those first few years as their own. As you said, they didn’t know they’re pretty good at what they do. And they think as you say that that’ll carry them through.

Al McBride 4:03
But then there’s all this marketing or networking or all these sort of things that you’re certainly doing that you don’t particularly want to be doing. And as you say, you’re bouncing from one guru or a shiny object that is supposed to solve all your problems to another.

Al McBride 4:18
So what was in that light, then is one valuable free action that the audience can implement that will help them with that issue. So it might not solve it, but it will just at least maybe turn their mindset or their, their trajectory in the right direction.

Dov Gordon 4:33
I would say that, you know, you need to get really clear about really this one thing, which is what is the problem that you’re helping solve, what is the result that you’re going to enable, and for who? Now we’ve all heard some version of that.

Dov Gordon 4:52
So I want to try to present it a little bit differently because sometimes when you hear an old idea and a fresh way it’ll land you know, perhaps Finally fall into place like, you know, Tetris, right. So you need to recognize that the first job of whatever marketing and selling you’re going to do.

Dov Gordon 5:12
To get in front of your ideal clients, the first thing, the first job of whatever working to do is to get their attention and interest, that means that they have to look up from whatever it is that they’re dealing with, or for or distracted by, or whatever might be, notice you, and their brain has to go, Wow, that’s interesting.

Dov Gordon 5:31
Anything else and you fail, they just walk back to continue going to do it. Like if we were at a at a convention at a conference, and we’re walking through the exhibitor booth. And there are all these signs and all these opportunities for us to pay attention to this or that, and we’re gonna ignore most of it.

Dov Gordon 5:48
But suddenly, there’s some sign or something that that you notice, and you say, Hey, hey, let’s go over there and have a look. So we were walking straight this way. And suddenly, we decided, Okay, well turn and go, you know, something, not only got our attention and got our interest.

Dov Gordon 6:03
And the only way you get somebody’s attention and interest, so that they change their plans and heading your direction, is if you talk about a problem they have and don’t want and or if you talk about a result they want don’t have a result. It also could be an experience they want and don’t have a change they want and don’t have.

Dov Gordon 6:20
If you talk about anything else, it’s just not going to work, their brain is subconsciously asking, should I pay attention is interesting in their brain goes no. All in a blink. So you’re the the one tip that’s really key for getting started is to get really clear, what are the problems that you help solve?

Dov Gordon 6:38
What are the results that you enable? And who has those problems? Who wants those results? It sounds easier than it actually is. It’s simple, but it’s not so easy. So it requires thought, because you got to enter that conversation going on in the mind of the ideal client to quote, a very famous observation in the direct marketing world.

Dov Gordon 6:58
I forget the guy who said that right now. But that quotes been going around for decades. And if you think about it, as I did a long time ago, I was think, well, if good advertising, as you said, enters the conversation going on in the mind of the ideal client, what are they?

Dov Gordon 7:14
What is that conversation? And I realized, all we’re ever thinking about is a problem that we have and don’t want to enter some kind of result we want don’t have. And if we could enter the conversation at the level that they’re thinking it then suddenly they the reaction is is instant, like, wow, you’re talking to me?

Dov Gordon 7:34
How did you just articulated the problem I have and don’t want better than I could have done it myself, you just described the result that I want better than I did myself, you must really understand me. And then you’ve got their attention and interest.

Al McBride 7:47
It’s so true. I mean, this is some of the very much parallel of what I do and more of a one to one scenario in the negotiation, which is you need to understand the world of the person on the other side. And that’s exactly what you’re talking about in a slightly larger scale, of course, but it’s the same ideas and it’s really understand where their head is at.

Dov Gordon 8:09
It’s what I’m talking about is one to one and it’s one to many. Yeah, it’s both. But I would say it’s that and it’s really a little more nuanced, because it’s not enough for you to be convinced that you understand them. They need to feel that you understand them. I know that’s what you meant. But I want to highlight that because

Al McBride 8:26
verify that Yeah, yeah,

Dov Gordon 8:29
I understand them. I know what they want. But they’re not responding. They’re not listening. Oh, okay. They need to feel that they understand. They need to feel that you understand. And that’s the real goal, you got to get to that point.

Al McBride 8:38
That’s the subtlety as you say that you can feel you understand them. But that also hints at something else. That hints that often we think we understand their needs. And it’s not that we’re necessarily wrong, but the hierarchy of their needs might be different.

Dov Gordon 8:57
Correct? Yeah.

Al McBride 8:58
You know, where we go, Oh, well, this is clearly the problem. And they say, yeah, that’s one of the problems but it’s not as you say, the one that makes me turn and give you my attention.

Al McBride 9:08
And if I give you my attention, that it actually makes me then take some action. Right. So uh, so might you have a free resource that people could potentially use or gain some, some insights from to help them with that trajectory?

Dov Gordon 9:28
Yeah, it relates to the the approach that I generally take clients through which is becoming what I think of as an under the radar leader in their industry.

Al McBride 9:38
Right. And that’s a very interesting phrase under the radar. Yeah, talk to us about that.

Dov Gordon 9:43
Yes. And People sometimes ask me this What if you’re looking to get clients need to become well known you become build your brand and, and all that’s true. And the idea of becoming an under the radar leader in your industry is simply recognizing this that if you form your own network.

Dov Gordon 10:01
I call it an alchemy network that’s comprised of 30, 50, 100, 150 well placed people across your industry, it could be colleagues, or it could be a network of your ideal clients.

Dov Gordon 10:15
You’ll you’ll have all the business that you want. And most of the people I’m dealing with are small firms, individuals, although I am looking to do the same thing for larger firms more midsize, larger firms, and I’m sure the same opportunity exists.

Dov Gordon 10:29
But nevertheless, it’s it’s having those relationships with the right people across the industry, you’ll have all the business that you want. And I’m not talking about a LinkedIn network. I’m not talking about a Facebook group or anything like that.

Dov Gordon 10:43
But the concept I laid out in a short video training at profitable relationships comm forward slash Goliath in your honor, geo Li a th, right. That’s the one. Yeah, so profitable relationships. COMM forward slash Goliath, just lay out the layout, the the framework, the strategy, that that I’ve, I’ve used it myself for 10 years before I started helping others are almost 10 years for started help helping other people do the same thing.

Dov Gordon 11:12
Because for so many years, I, I was lost in the experts curse, you know, as a victim of the curse of the expert, we don’t really value what you’ve done. You know, I tend to, I tend to undervalue what I’ve got.

Dov Gordon 11:24
But I’ve come to see through helping other people that it really is valuable. And it there’s, there’s a there are certain ways of thinking about it, and certain steps or approaches you want to take in order to ensure success. So that’s, that’s, that’s, that’s what I’d recommend.

Al McBride 11:44
It’s a very interesting point that about, I mean, some would go as far as to call it imposter syndrome to a certain degree, but it often I don’t think people even have imposter syndrome, per se, don’t feel like an imposter.

Al McBride 11:56
But there is that level of doubt that comes with expertise. I think it’s that it’s the Dunning Kruger effect, where essentially, the more expert you are, the more aware of all the things you don’t know and all the subtleties and gradients of your knowledge compared to a beginner or novice who has a much, much thinner understanding of what’s in front of them.

Dov Gordon 12:18
Yeah, absolutely. You know, the more you know, the more you realize that you don’t know.

Al McBride 12:22
Exactly, which brings a certain level of humility. But as you said, it’s about getting getting around that getting through that and putting that in perspective,

Dov Gordon 12:29
Unless Unless you’re in politics, in which case, you think that, you know, you know, better than everybody else. But yeah, there are there are those or politics or media, I suppose we’re, you know, I think you know, better than everybody else.

Al McBride 12:46
Well, as they say, from the biographies of the of the Presidents behind you, I think they disagree with his vision. And then there’s also humility. Yeah,

Dov Gordon 12:57
exactly. Well, that’s what a good, that’s what that’s, that’s the difference between a politician and a leader or statesman. And I think that there are some politicians that definitely qualify as leaders. There are some media personalities who are qualified leaders, but they certainly seem to be the minority.

Dov Gordon 13:13
I think that, you know, I tend to be more appreciative, or more willing to listen or to follow somebody who demonstrates that they have a kind of, they have a humility. You know, they have a respect for the complexity of the world.

Dov Gordon 13:33
Rather than, you know, showing there at, you know, adulation for the genius of mankind. You know, I mean, yeah, as smart as we all are, we’re not as smart as we’d like to think we are.

Dov Gordon 13:46
And I’d much rather, I’m much more drawn to somebody who I can, you can tell from what they say and how they say it, that they appreciate that they’re, you know, as smart as they are, they know that there’s a lot more that they don’t know and don’t understand. Those are the kinds of leaders and, and people because we’re all forced to trust other people, you know, none of us has first hand knowledge of many of the things that we accept as true.

Al McBride 14:17
Very good point.

Dov Gordon 14:18
Yeah, but but we see gone,

Al McBride 14:21
I was just gonna say just, you know, I couldn’t agree more, it shows a lot of on one hand reflection, but on the other, there’s a self awareness there, and an acceptance of one’s own limitations or faults in either in our character or in our thinking.

Dov Gordon 14:40
Yeah, we all want things to be a certain way. We’re all biased. We’re all you know. We’re all who falling I’d say most of us, again, are, I think, fall short of living up to our own standards for ourselves. And there are different ways of handling it.

Dov Gordon 14:57
The majority of us, we end up you know, undermining ourselves or end up not even standing up and making the impact that we’re fully hundred percent capable of, then there are the smaller numbers that you know who they completely they seem to be, they seem to be unaware. I’m saying this because again, I’m an outsider. I don’t know what people are thinking, but what they say and their behavior, and that

Al McBride 15:19
shows a certain level of humility.

Dov Gordon 15:21
I mean, I really mean it, but like, we’re all forming our judgments. I just kind of keep an open mind. Like, if somebody shows me evidence that I misjudged, I’ll, I’ll, I’ll take it into account and change my mind immediately. I’m, you know, I foolish in consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds is, I forget who said that.

Dov Gordon 15:39
But there’s no, there’s no pride in being foolishly in a foolishly consistent. And, you know, there are, of course, a small number of people who seem to really think that they are, you know, the gift to mankind, that we all need them, we’d be lost without them. And they, they’re the ones who caused the greatest damage.

Dov Gordon 16:00
Like, I don’t trust, I don’t trust a politician who doesn’t trust me to speak my mind. Who wants to limit free speech?

Al McBride 16:08
I couldn’t agree more, I think is the most valuable thing we have ready? Is that exchange of ideas, it’s also a

Dov Gordon 16:14
Free speech is the human right, that ensures every other human right. If you’re a human rights activist or human rights Crusader, you believe in human rights, then then you have to agree that that basic, the most basic human right is free speech.

Dov Gordon 16:30
Now, that doesn’t mean the limitations that I believe there should be on free speech are usually the ones that we find in terms of like that, you should not be allowed to call for a direct direct calls for violence, or get you know.

Dov Gordon 16:44
That of course wrong, and reasonable laws against slander, and, and that type of thing. So but aside from that, people need to be free to say what they want, and then you can counter it.

Dov Gordon 17:00
I’m saying this, because I think that we have a real there’s a real attack on this going on these days. And anybody who really claims to be a human rights activist of any kind, who is trying to limit the the basic human right of freedom of expression, is, is lying to themselves and to us. You got more than you bargained for!

Al McBride 17:25
Certainly did! But I very much take certainly the point on, on the idea of dialogue. And on the idea of, to me, it also it points out, you know, that idea and transactional analysis, which is very simple. People like transaction analysis, and they use it in a lot of trainings.

Al McBride 17:47
Because it’s a simple paradigm people can intuitively understand of parent or adult, parent to child or adult or adults as essentially, the dynamics of what you’re talking about is encouraging adult adult conversations.

Al McBride 18:00
Where I can say something that might offend you, and you can say something that might offend me, but we actually hear each other out and having a dialogue, rather than you saying, “you can’t say that” right, which is very much like a parent saying, you can do that, you know, wrap your mouth.

Dov Gordon 18:16
And also, I also believe that we are too quick, I’m saying we, but I don’t, I don’t know that I’m guilty of this, because I, you know. I tend to assume that people have are coming from a good place to have good intention.

Dov Gordon 18:35
Even if they disagree with me, even if I think that their their idea of how to move forward as an individual as a society, even if I believe that that is going to be highly destructive, I will tend to believe that overwhelmingly, it’s coming from a good place. And I think that’s a

Al McBride 18:52
really interesting point Dov I mean, it’s, this is in relationship counseling. This was Principle number one. This was often for, you know, couples and whatnot, but it’s any relationship is “ascribe positive intent”, even if they’re being aggressive towards you, even if they’re using very violent language towards you.

Al McBride 19:12
So, you know, it’s this idea of hurt people, hurt people. Yeah. And it’s being able to see beyond those you say that first, initial signals that people often stop at

Dov Gordon 19:28
Yeah, absolutely. We’ve, we, we’re accepting more and more, we’re accepting this type of, you know, it’s it’s not dialogue, it’s not conversation. We’re accepting more and more that if somebody disagrees with me, it’s because they are a this or that.

Dov Gordon 19:45
You know, and that’s not that’s, that’s, that is sometimes true. It’s usually not true. Usually not true and, and it’s just a that is what’s the dividing society. That’s the attitude that’s dividing society, right now as we speak, the end of 2020. It’s our our inability to recognize the humanity in somebody who disagrees with us.

Al McBride 20:10
It’s very true. It’s very true. I mean, my next question was going to be what do you believe that many people don’t. But I think we’ve, we’ve covered a cert

Dov Gordon 20:20
recently covered that

Al McBride 20:21
moving back, it may be the folks back into more of the business scenarios. I mean, you mentioned quite a few approaches that a lot of people take. Whether it’s, you know, as you said, you could one could write a book, one could, you know, spend a lot of time on Facebook ads, or LinkedIn or all these other mediums, which are, appear to be more tools than than anything else, and nothing inherently wrong with those approaches.

Al McBride 20:48
But as you said, it’s having this core theme and core plan. Almost. What I’m hearing and this is why it may be way off is almost like a having a clearer values for what you and your business and what problem you solve, what results you give. But in that more inherent way. Can you talk to us a bit more about that approach and about that concept, or philosophy?

Dov Gordon 21:21
And observation, of course, just make sure to follow the concept of routing, everything you’re doing in a clear problem, clear result,

Al McBride 21:29
routing everything in pure clear, clear problem. But also, as I said, I just want I’m looking for your more unique point of view on this idea of your way versus everybody else’s way.

Dov Gordon 21:45
Oh, okay. Well, the so like the under the radar approach, building an alchemy network, that approach I assume that’s what you mean, no? Okay. Well, look, you know, the, the, here’s the thing, there’s no one tactic, or one strategy, or one approach.

Dov Gordon 22:02
That’s right, for everybody. And I realized this many years ago, I was, you know, when I when myself, you know, I don’t consider myself a natural marketer or a salesperson or I don’t consider myself a you know, the charismatic guru type, by any stretch.

Dov Gordon 22:15
But, you know, so So, you know, I was that I was my ideal client. I was the kind of person who knew I had a lot to offer, but I did not know how to get that across how to find my ideal clients. How to communicate it, how to talk about what I did in a way that, you know, instantly earned their attention, and then built that towards their respect and their and their, the opportunity to serve them and to be well compensated for it.

Dov Gordon 22:40
So, you know, I looked around and I saw it, what is everybody what other people doing, and I saw people doing all sorts of things, especially, you know, online, and they would putting themselves forward as these all knowing, omniscient, and of masters just do what I did and you too can have a, you know, three homes, and boats and cars and all that.

Dov Gordon 23:02
And I don’t, personally nothing wrong with that I just didn’t really talk to me on some of the the way they would talk to their, their audiences on their videos and their emails, I felt it was very condescending, very disrespectful.

Dov Gordon 23:14
I also came to, and so I can never do that, I just really see that most people. In most people, they have a lot to offer, and to struggle to be struggling to, to connect with your ideal client. What that really means is that I wake up in the morning, and I know that I have a lot to offer.

Dov Gordon 23:40
But I’m kind of limited because I simply don’t know that I don’t know how to offer that value or do it. I just don’t know how to get other people to see it. And there’s too much out there. We’re basically people are saying, hey, if you follow these steps, you can have what I did you also success.

Dov Gordon 23:58
But there’s there’s something more fundamental that’s missing. You know, if I was standing side by side with a master chef, and we’re, you know, both working on on following the same recipe. My results would not be as good as the master chef, his would look better taste better. smell better may be, you know, and why is that?

Dov Gordon 24:20
Because we’re both following the same series of steps, the recipe, I mean, that’s what it is. It’s a plan, you follow the steps. The difference is that the master chef has a depth of understanding about the properties of each ingredient, and how they interact with each other and with heat and with, you know, moisture, liquid liquid water over time.

Dov Gordon 24:39
So it’s that depth of understanding that he’s bringing to the simple plan that I lack. When I came to realize that people really need to understand the basic skills or there’s a certain certain skills or, you know, aha, there is something you need to bring to the marketing and selling of your expertise.

Dov Gordon 24:58
And it’s not you know, it’s not Like lots and lots of stuff, it’s not these massive courses that you’ve got to learn everything. In order to be ready, it really boils down to a small number of fundamentals.

Dov Gordon 25:10
And we touched on some of them earlier, like being really clear of what’s the problem you help solve, what’s the result that you enable, and it has to be at the right level. But it also has to do with this is that most people, most people have an expertise, they’re not looking to, you know, to scale their business to seven figures and beyond.

Dov Gordon 25:29
I don’t believe it’s true. I think most people are not looking to manage big teams, most people are not looking to, to grow big businesses. Most people are looking to be doing great work with great clients making a great income, probably mid six, maybe, you know, upper six figures, and have some time and freedom to enjoy the money with their family and just.

Dov Gordon 25:49
Save some up and you know, so they know they’ve got savings for retirement, they want to be doing great work. And therefore, most people, it’s about relationships. Yes, have a podcast and it fits beautifully with having a podcast with the the, you know, the alchemy network model.

Dov Gordon 26:07
Yes, have a good brand, have a nice website, write a book, the things that all those things, if they’re built on a central platform. What I think of as the golden platform, that’s the alchemy network, everything else works, works more, you know, it all adds up takes you in the same direction instead of spreading you in many different directions.

Dov Gordon 26:27
So when you recognize that, hey, I may not be the kind of person who’s looking to put myself out there as this guru type. But when I’m talking to a potential client, I listen, I connect, I make you know, I ask good questions, I can, they can see that I have valuable experience.

Dov Gordon 26:44
If that’s you, then take the approach of becoming the under the radar leader in your industry. And over time, your reputation will spread without you having to focus on being somebody that you’re not and without having to focus on, you know, kind of getting yourself out there. It’ll just happen as a consequence of contributing to the people that you’re most that you care about most that you’re most able to serve.

Al McBride 27:12
That’s fabulous. There’s so many great insights in there. And he, you remind me of so many, so many great points. Particularly I mean, starting with the context, there are you reminded me of Perry Marshall always said, you know, people can steal his copy word for word and a won’t have the same effect. Because they don’t have all the context built up around it. They don’t have the reputation and all the intention built up on either side of that piece of copy. So it’s, it’s an excuse for us to do that.

Dov Gordon 27:45
Oh, Perry, always struck me as a as a good person who is masterful at what he does. So glad that we see eye to eye.

Al McBride 27:54
I met him in Dublin several times, actually. And he’s is exactly as you think he is from I met.

Dov Gordon 28:00
I met him once in Tel Aviv, actually.

Al McBride 28:03
Yeah, yeah, he’s a great guy. He’s a great guy. As you say, one of those guys that isn’t really a guru, per se, but just he also works with real businesses rather than business and how to sell people on developing a business, you know, the sales base,

Dov Gordon 28:21
he’s a thinker, he has respect for complexity,

Al McBride 28:24
very much, very much. But he does does a lot of great insights there. I mean, I again, I have an insight into what the next answer might be, but I’ll ask it anyway. In your work, what do you enjoy most about what aspects really give you that little boost that thrill?

Dov Gordon 28:45
I just really enjoy helping ordinary people be extraordinary consultants, which means helping ordinary people who are frustrated by being overwhelmed and running in different directions, and, you know, kind of not not seeing their full value or not see, or rather being frustrated that others are not seeing it.

Dov Gordon 29:08
Suddenly, they have, you know, a breakthrough and a success. And they realized that, wow, yeah, I could do this. And they always knew they could do this. It’s just that their outer results weren’t matching what they knew was possible. Hmm. I just really enjoy that.

Dov Gordon 29:25
I, you know, again, I it’s a journey that I’ve been on that I am on, I don’t claim to have arrived. And there’s always as long as you’re alive. There’s another challenge is there’s are things that will frighten us or things that will excite us. And, you know, we’ll be happy about things and sad about things and we’ll bounce around and there’ll be forces that come to our aid and forces that try to stop us. And yeah, I mean, just

Al McBride 29:53
Just to point out, there’s a lovely humility there. Again, just very consistent with their conversation. Because there’s so many, as you say, experts who might think of themselves as gurus, but they still, I know, I sometimes have it as well, where I think I meant to have all of the answers because I now identify as this and this on LinkedIn.

Al McBride 30:15
Whereas you said, it’s difficult sometimes to say, Well, yeah, I have a lot of experience in this, I have a lot of knowledge, I have a lot of unique point of views. But it’s still difficult to say, you know, what, I’m still learning here, I’m still developing, I’m still on that journey.

Dov Gordon 30:29
But that’s the truth. And everybody knows, that’s the truth. But there’s, there’s, you know, and some people appreciate that honesty, and a lot of people don’t, because, and, again, I don’t know what anybody’s thinking. So all we can do sometimes just is we’re all we’re all guessing roll forming judgments based on what people say and what they do.

Dov Gordon 30:47
I just think that we all need to keep an open mind and be willing to re you know, re re judge, you know, reinterpret if given new evidence. But, you know, I think that the people who are drawn to, to those who put themselves up on a pedestal, are looking to do that. That’s what they’re looking for. They want to be able to, to be the savior without having to be the master. And I don’t mean master of others, I mean, Master of self master of your craft, that takes work, that’s hard. You know, so, and

Al McBride 31:25
you just say you were alluding to something that sparked my head earlier, which was, when I was doing a lot of research for exactly what my clients really need. How they see their problem, all those sort of things during all those discovery conversations with potential clients and actual clients.

Al McBride 31:43
One of the things it was enunciated more so in a lot of the creative business owners and entrepreneurs that I worked with, but I noticed the parallel with other businesses. And it was basically that was their greatest fear other than having to let some of their staff go.

Al McBride 32:00
Second to that, but very high up was the fear of doing mediocre work, work that they won’t work they weren’t proud of that they couldn’t stand over. So you know, as you said, it’s that, that’s the counterbalance to knowing that you’re on a journey and developing the whole time is.

Dov Gordon 32:19
That’s, that is I’m well experienced in that fear. No, I, I, I worry about that, more than I should. And there is some kind of balance between you really just moving forward in perfectly. And knowing that, doing it like this is contributing to somebody out there. And that’s what I need to do, because it’s contributing or creating work that’s imperfect, but still valuable to somebody.

Dov Gordon 32:54
That’s what that’s part of the process of getting better and better all the time. If we sit around waiting until we’re perfect will never be perfect, because we’re not, you’re not, you’re not going to be a master if you if you’re not on the court. You’re never going to master your craft, you got to be out on the court playing the game.

Dov Gordon 33:11
And that means you’re going to do a poorly at first. However, the good news is that there are people out there who even if you do it poorly, that is I don’t mean like, you know, you know, at a level of malpractice. I mean, at the level that’s below the level you’d like to be at. But there are still people out there who will benefit from what you’re doing who value it.

Al McBride 33:32
Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, Dov you’ve been hugely generous with your time. And I know you have some some other obligations coming up. So we will pause it there and potentially hope to talk in another day. So thank you so much for being on the podcast today.

Dov Gordon 33:51
Thanks for having me out.

Al McBride 33:52
Cheers. Outstanding. So thank you.

Al McBride 33:56
So just a few last concluding thoughts there on the Dov Gordon interview. Just to thank Dov again for his time and going above and beyond through requirements, as many of you might have noticed who went a tad, Tad beyond the nine minute usual format.

Al McBride 34:13
That was because just in the in the conversation before we hit record, he was open to going a bit longer. If we were in a conversational flow that we both agreed that we’d let that happen. With the nine minutes. I like to have a little bit of freedom there that if if if we’re really going in a very strong and interesting direction to to continue.

Al McBride 34:36
Also, his time happened to allow it. So that’s why we went off and when I interview people that may not be possible so but just to pick up on a few points to reiterate their impact on me. And how important I think they are is that you know we can all we all want to be experts.

Al McBride 34:54
We all want to to others to realize our expertise and value that but at the same time that the awareness that we’re still learning, we’re still developing and evolving at with our expertise with the value that we can create and bring. And mixing up with having the humility to say, you know, I don’t know everything, I don’t have all of the answers and there are a number of ways people can go.

Al McBride 35:21
There’s not one right way. There’s no one pattern for everyone that that works. I think that’s a very brave statements where human and humane statement, I think it needs mentioning so another thanks to dove there. And that’s it from the Goliath podcast for today. Thank you. Hope you tune in again soon.

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