Al McBride 0:00
Al Welcome to the dealing with Goliath podcast. The mission of dealing with Goliath is to sharpen the psychological edge, negotiation, ethical influencing and high impact conversations for business leaders who want to be more effective under pressure, uncover hidden value and build greater connection, all while increasing profitability. This is the short form espresso shot of insight podcast forms to boost business performance using our five questions in 15 to 20 minutes format. My guest today is James Carson. James is an accomplished communication strategist with extensive experience as a speaker and in business training, he has a proven ability to inspire and guide clients to reach their full potential. As a skilled business trainer, James specializes in negotiation, making complex concepts accessible to learners at all levels. He’s also a sought after speaking coach and mentor, passionate about helping others develop their speaking voice. Founder of common sense teaching. James focuses on high level business communication, helping individuals and businesses enhance their presentation skills to boost sales and profits. Known for his engaging style and dedication, James is a trusted advisor and respected leader in his field. James, welcome to the show. Thanks.

James Carson 1:21
Al, I couldn’t have said that, even if I’d have written it, so that’s cool. Thank you for the kind introduction.

Al McBride 1:28
Not at all, not at all. So there’s lots I’d love to unpack there. There’s a very, very interesting stuff, and there’s some parallels of my own background and areas that I focus on. So I’m going to enjoy this. And from our conversations before, I know we should have hit record, because there were some gems there. We didn’t. Anyway, here we go. So, so James, just you know, who is your ideal client and what’s the biggest challenge they tend to face?

James Carson 1:55
Well, my, my ideal client has got to be someone who they may be an aspiring business leader, maybe someone who’s just been promoted up the ladder, and now, instead of been the worker bee, they’re going to be the one who who actually is leading the team, and they may have difficulty expressing themselves, so they may have issues getting their message out in a way that people understand and are motivate, motivated by what what they’re saying. You know, whether it’s a maybe a sales presentation where they need to negotiate a deal, maybe it’s something where they’re a buyer and they have to talk with their suppliers or their vendors or someone on a daily basis, where they need to understand what they’re saying, what the company needs, and what they may be able to get from them. So generally speaking, it’s it’s individuals who just haven’t had built the confidence yet in themselves and their communication skills, they’ve been what called thrown into what I call the business fire pit without a very reliable fire extinguisher. They need to know about that. So those are the ones that that I tend to help, and because they’re the ones who need the help the most.

Al McBride 3:24
Gotcha. And what are some of the common mistakes people make when they’re trying to solve some of the problems in that situation? What did they what have they tried that didn’t really work before they find you, James,

James Carson 3:36
they tried to do it themselves, by themselves. Okay? You know they don’t feel comfortable asking for help, or they’re in a position that says, Well, I’ve been promoted, or I’ve been a leader, and so I’m supposed to know this now they’re not saying this out out loud, but that same time is, oh, I can do this. Well, some can give you that, but the majority of folks really, they’re not sure. Even if they can, they don’t get that, shall we call it a pat on the back, or that confidence builder that someone might get from working from with me or anyone else that does this to be a a feedback resource for them to learn the best way to do it, and, you know, and actually feel confident when they when they need to speak.

Al McBride 4:37
Very good, very good. So just to say, I mean, that’s a very interesting situation where yet they’ve tried it. I mean, are they just winging it essentially and doing their best, or are they, you know, watching YouTube videos, or are they reading books, or what? What do you find they’re usually at? Well,

James Carson 4:58
most of the time is. They’re winging it right. Then they’re done that. So I have, back in the day, I winged it thinking I knew what I was doing. Sometimes I did, sometimes I didn’t. But you know the old heart palpitations and the I’m not sure I’m supposed to be doing this type thing comes out, and if you’re able to work with someone, then that that helps, because it takes away that apprehension and and that anxiety, and you own, okay, I’m supposed to feel this way. It’s not wrong to feel this way, and so I can they build the confidence, and someone’s helping them build that confidence. And that’s the fun part for me as as a teacher and a consultant, is that you hear them, you you work with them, and all of a sudden, you see, when that light bulb goes on, I can do this. I can feel confident from doing it. So from the time they start, could be at the beginning of a session, could be two weeks or three weeks or month down the road, but they hear it, and they know they can do it from there.

Al McBride 6:10
Excellent stuff. And this is, this is something you just, just to loop back to one of the points you made there. You saying, most people you know, struggle with this, but there’s a percentage of people who don’t who what I always call the natural negotiators, but I’ve also found that they tend to have a limited number of strategies that work for them a lot of the time, which is why they’re relatively comfortable and relatively in negotiation and relatively successful at it, until they’re suddenly not, and they don’t know why It fails suddenly they don’t have a plan B, because, as you said, they’re, they’re not, as you know, they maybe they’re, they’re quite aggressive or highly assertive in your face, sort of style. And that works a lot of the time, as I said, until it suddenly crashes and burns and the other side, or don’t talk to me. How dare you be so rude or whatever, they have a very unsuccessful reaction, and it just sounds like your approach actually gives some people in those situations as well, it gives them a whole other set of resources they can draw on to to solve that problem.

James Carson 7:17
And yes, you’re exactly right, and I agree 100% those that generally think they’re they’re natural, or they can do it, I would say 90% of them probably are just what you described, that person who can get it started, and then they’re up there being aggressive. You’re, I love the word in your face, type negotiation. And I call that old school back in the days, and I always use the example of someone buying a car, yeah, you know that that was like, okay, they didn’t have the the resources we do now to know what dealers do and how manufacturers do and what you can buy a car for, etc. They were like, I want this car, and I’m not going to pay what you’re asking for it. No way in the world am I going to do that. And then here we go. You know, it could be someone asking for a raise, even. And they go in there, I demand to have this amount of money. I demand to have this and then the boss said no, and they don’t under then you’ve developed something that’s really a problem, because they don’t know how. They haven’t learned that skill of going further, how to okay, I hear you, boss, but so let’s talk about this, and I’ll flip it to the boss. The boss says, okay, James Al, I we can talk about this, you know, but that’s the way that I teach folks to do in the fact is, okay, let’s have a conversation about this,

Al McBride 8:59
exactly as I always say, Don’t get mad, get curious, you know, exactly. Oh, that’s great. Yeah, exactly,

James Carson 9:05
yeah.

Al McBride 9:06
No, excellent, excellent. And so tell me, James, what is one valuable free action that the audience can implement? Al mine solve the problem, you know, but it just starts them thinking in the right way, point in the right direction.

James Carson 9:21
I like to use the television as a resource. Okay,

Al McBride 9:28
interesting.

James Carson 9:31
If someone’s hasn’t ever been on a stage, and when I say stage, it’s just talking to somebody. It doesn’t have to be up on a platform, but in front of an audience and they’re not sure one what do they look like? How do they feel? And things I say, watch the news presenters. You know there, most of them are, are very confident. They say the right words. Yes, generally, they’re reading the prompts. But if you see someone on a remote, you know, outside or on location, you can watch them speak. And do they stay calm? Do they say the right words? And how do they say it? And I say Tell the folks don’t listen necessarily, listen to the content that they’re presenting, but watch how they are presenting. Do they smile? Are they’re confident? Are they able to interview someone right there, ask a good question and get that information back? And we see this every day, whether you’re watching a talk show or the news, and I do it here, if anyone is out there speaking for any reason, watch a preacher or a priest give a sermon. They’re confident in their message, whether you agree with the message or not, that doesn’t matter to me. It’s the fact that you can watch them and get a feel of, Oh, they’re so smooth. They really know what they’re saying. They don’t stutter and stammer and oz and Ooms and all these things. So those are all free. We do it every day, and I think it’s just something. If we’re become aware of what other people are doing, you can so, oh, I see what they’re doing, maybe I can do that. So that’s, that’s one thing that I do, and one last thing that I do, tell people, record yourself,

Al McBride 11:40
brilliant? Yes, absolutely, it’s

James Carson 11:44
okay to look in the mirror and what you’re doing, but record yourself that just turn your phone on and recite Mary had a little m, I don’t care what it is, just anything so you can hear your voice, know what the audience is hearing, and go, Oh, that’s not too bad. Or, oh, man, maybe I need to get some feedback on this. So I like to that’s the easiest things to do, because it costs you no time and no money. That’s

Al McBride 12:14
excellent, excellent suggestion. And I particularly, I like the modeling, as you said, where you’re looking at people who are doing this professionally for a living, they managed to seem fairly natural, even though they’re professional. But as you said, it was a very good point about the the journalists on location, where they’re having to nearly make it up on the spot. But how are they flowing? How what’s their intonations? As you say, but yes, no, I’m a huge advocate of, as you say, recording yourself, because the camera shows you what you actually look and sound like, not what you think you look and sound. And a lot of people are usually actually kind of pleasantly surprised. I find usually, particularly if they’re nervous, you know, a lot of them, when they watch the recording, right, they go, Oh, I didn’t sound quite as nervous as I thought I would, which oddly, is confidence building itself, you know. But oh, I didn’t realize I spoke quite that quickly. Somebody else will say, you know. But these are things that, as you said, you or I can tell them, and they’ll take on board a little bit, but when they see the evidence themselves, it’s a whole different ball game. Yeah, absolutely. So it’s a great, great suggestion.

James Carson 13:25
Yeah, it is. And there’s, there’s a lot of times that we don’t think about it. Yeah, the phone’s there, and we’re doing selfies. But what is a selfie? It’s a look at yourself. Generally, it’s a picture. But at the same time, if, again, if you’re just saying something or recording a diary. I mean, some people record everything they do. I need to do that more for myself. But the point is, we it’s a natural thing. Nothing to get. Oh, I’m nervous doing a selfie. No, we’re not. We put that puppy up there all the time and just watch. We play with it. That’s how we do it. So it’s use it if you have it, absolutely,

Al McBride 14:07
absolutely. So what is one valuable, free resource that you could direct people to that will help with some of these issues that we’re discussing?

James Carson 14:18
It’s interesting. You mentioned it previously the internet is free. If you have someone that you would like to listen to, and I’m going to use Tony Robbins as someone that’s on stage a lot, and a name that we all probably know. There are others, but you can see professionals that you have seen, Oh, I heard him speak, he’s pretty cool, or she’s pretty cool. I like what they’re doing and how they present themselves. And a lot of these motivational speakers that are out there, you can find them by just goo. Them someone you want to hear and spend some time listening to them and how they do it again. It’s free. It’s a resource that you can learn from a lot of these folks have free little snippets of training that they do about what they’re doing, but you can hear them speak, and, you know, another one that I like, and it’s not 100% free, but it’s inexpensive. As far as I’m concerned, is Toastmasters International? Ah, yes, excellent. It. You know, it’s international all across the world. You know, have toast if you’re not familiar with Toastmasters, very simply, it’s an organization who supports leaders and speakers. They help you develop your leadership skills and your speaking skills on a general being because you go to a meeting in your community and you see how others are doing it. So I’m not calling it a support group, but you do have those folks who are there for the same reason you are. So I say that it’s roughly 120 bucks a year, $10 a month, nothing. So that’s really not bad, and you could check it out in your

Al McBride 16:21
location. And as you said, they’re not just listening to the content. They’re listening to the how you’re saying it. And give you counters and some guidance around it, which, as you said, when people have that sort of, those sort of insights into how they carry themselves, how they present themselves, it does impact positively any of your communications and negotiations Exactly, exactly. Now you also offer, I believe, strategy discovery call.

James Carson 16:52
If anyone would want to check with me or check in with me, or learn more about me and talk to me in person. I invite you to go to LinkedIn. That’s where I’m communicating right now. Linkedin.com, James R Carson, yeah, you’ll find me, and I’m doing that right now because my website is under construction, as they say, I’m redoing it, modernizing it a little bit, but this I offer a free call discovery call with me personally. We can schedule a time to be able to get together, find out what you’re doing, how you’re doing it. Maybe I can offer a few tips in the 15 to 30 minutes that we chat and see how I’m that can help you. I love doing these

Al McBride 17:47
excellent stuff. So what would be your number one insider principle on how to negotiate or build rapport and connection better? I know I you don’t have to keep it to one, but what might be your top, your top one or two or even three, if you want to be generous.

James Carson 18:07
Well, you know, I, I know that mine and your negotiating strategies, so to speak, are very, very similar because we’ve had that conversation, my principle of negotiating is that any negotiation you do, whether it’s where are we going to lunch today, or I want this, or I want that, or I need this, I need to buy those type things, they should all be considered a relationship building conversation.

Al McBride 18:47
That’s an interesting perspective. I love it. So tell us a bit more about that. Yeah. Well, you

James Carson 18:53
know if, if your job or our, your mind says I need to, whether you use the term negotiate or not, we’re using that term, but you need to talk with someone about this, and you know that they may have another opinion. You really can’t go in there, like we said, and start pounding on them before you say hello. You really have to know who you’re talking to, what the conversation may bring out and how that conversation you and I are having a conversation, if we were negotiating, it’s you talk a while. I’ll talk a while. I’ll give opinion. We’ll do this, and it’s a conversation. If it doesn’t move forward, fine, we say we’ll talk again. But if you go in there, I’m going to have this, and I’m just going to beat him in the head until he gives me what I want. That’s no, not with me. You’re not I’m going have a nice day. So I think that that’s it. The combination conversation needs to be where you find out more about your. Your quote counterpart, your customer or your clients, and what the value is that you can give them, and most importantly, they can give you indeed. So you’re, you’re you’re showing that value, and you’re finding out what their value is. They may have a value you never thought about. And if you don’t have the conversation that input give and take in, just having the conversation, you might never know that. And all of a sudden you find something that’s out there that might show up in, in behind something. When they’ve said no, all of a sudden they went, what if,

Unknown Speaker 20:48
yeah,

James Carson 20:49
can we do this? So that’s I approach it like just having a conversation. Let’s talk about it.

Al McBride 20:55
I love it. I love it. I know there’s a great negotiator who says, Yeah, I don’t really negotiate. I like to call it just having collaborative conversations. Oh, and it’s a love. It’s, again, a lovely label, lovely attitude in which to go in, because then you’re exploring, rather than, as you say, just having power plays of saying, I need this, or you’re going to do the other Absolutely, absolutely. And

James Carson 21:19
I think lastly, is that we hear the term a lot, and I don’t know it could be overused, but the mindset, yeah, I believe it’s not overused, because I don’t believe that we always have the proper mindset. And if you don’t have a proper mindset when you’re negotiating, or even in business, anything sales or whatever we’re doing, you know, you go in there the old like we said, Let’s beat them to death, instead of said, Okay, I want to know more about this person and what they do. How can they help me? And how can I help them? If that’s your mindset, at least the foundation, I think you’re in a better position to be able to stretch when you get

Al McBride 22:14
and you get in there, and it’s just a quick observation on that, that when you I think an awful lot of people fear negotiation, because they’ve either been on the receiving end of that kind of a hyper aggressive power dynamic thing, or they’re like, I don’t want to be that guy, or I don’t want to be that gal, you know, I don’t want to act like that. I don’t want but they think they might have to, you know what I mean, whereas when you’re saying, if you come in with the much more human, humane mindset of just saying, you know how I further this relationship? How will I explore what’s possible here with this person? Then a lot of that fear of negotiating drops away. Because, as you said, as I say, negotiation is just high, higher stakes communications and conversations reading, and its core it is,

James Carson 23:10
and I believe, too, that if you approach it with this mindset, that I’m going to have a conversation and I’m going to learn and I’m going to give,

Unknown Speaker 23:22
yeah,

James Carson 23:24
and you can give value to them and not strike a deal. But if you, but if you’ve built the relationship, sure is easier next time, because you already know them. You’ve built a relationship that you possibly can go back to at another time. So it boy, that cuts a lot of that BS that you have to, you don’t have to go through it again.

Al McBride 23:47
Absolutely, absolutely. And this is what, you know, I always go on about, about the building rapport. It’s that little bit of a bridge that, as you said, you can always come back to it later, as in that relationship, potentially down the road. You know, the amount of times that I had didn’t get a deal or something or and, as you say, then the the other party could be months. It could even be years later. I’ve got, oh, I thought you popped to mind when I was thinking of such a and they might introduce to someone that it’s a massive deal. It’s a massive, beautiful piece of work, or whatever. Why? Because you had a good interaction that they thought, I like the way this person does business. I like the way this person does just conversation. You know that they feel treated with respect. They feel it was, it was a good, a good situation there where they think that’s how I want my client to feel, so I’m happy to hand them over. You know,

James Carson 24:45
yeah, and I like to think of it. And I just really recently thought about in the negotiation thing, I mean, with customers and customer service, you want. Well, I teach that you want to treat folks how you want to be treated. You know, night, be nice to them, show them respect, etc, etc. It’s the same thing if you’re in a negotiating situation. To me, is respect, listen to them. Be mindful of what they’re doing, that they have a job to do, and they’re representing themselves or their company, and you’re doing the same. So if you treat them, and they treat you, and they will if you’re treating them that way, you know you could get in a conversation about, oh, they’re being mean, or they walked into the My establishment and demanding this? Well, if there are techniques you can use that will calm them down, and if you do it the right way, you might sell them something you know, when it’s all over because you showed them respect and value, because that’s what I would want. So I don’t know that’s another little tip that I that I use. It’s a strategy that I use.

Al McBride 26:06
It’s a great point. It’s a great point. And thank you for all of your your generosity with so many insights there, James, I love the way we’re very much on the same page. So James Carson, thank you very much for being a fabulous guest on the show, and just once again, it’s best for people to reach out to you on LinkedIn. Is that correct? And it’s LinkedIn slash James R Carson, and the link, of course, will be below the video and in the show notes of the the audio podcast, James, thank you so much.

James Carson 26:38
Thanks for having me. Al,

Al McBride 26:39
cheers. You.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai