Al McBride 0:20
Welcome to the dealing with Goliath podcast. The mission of dealing with Goliath is to sharpen the psychological edge of negotiation and high impact conversations. For Business leaders with skin in the game, who want to be more effective under pressure, uncover hidden value, and increase profitability. With expert guests across the business spectrum. We deliver gems of wisdom delving into their methods, their thinking and approach to business life and problem solving.

Al McBride 0:47
This is the grand a cup of insight, long form podcast interview, where we take the time to delve a little bit deeper into our guests experiences stories, and to get those prices nuggets.

Al McBride 0:59
I’m your host, Al McBride. And my guest today is Joseph McGuire. Having taught the ancient Chinese tradition of men shine or face reading to healthcare professionals in Germany and Ireland since 1985. Joseph brought it into the business world in Ireland in 2015, as a profiling and communication tool, with particular emphasis on senior level interviews, negotiations, and enhanced communication skills training for teams, including sales.

Al McBride 1:32
He also works with both individuals and couples on communication skills for exceptional relationships, both professional and personal. He is the author of face facts, the art of reading your clients, and prospects for sales, negotiation and recruitment. So Joseph, welcome. Great to have you on the show.

Joseph McGuire 1:54
Good morning. I was so delighted to be here. Thank you for having me.

Al McBride 1:56
Well, it’s a fascinating field. It’s absolutely fascinating. Give give some of the listeners just a feel an outline an overview, if you will, of what this whole art of reading clients is all about.

Joseph McGuire 2:10
Okay, the basic system is, as you mentioned, to see the ancient Chinese traditional Mien Shiang, and I think I’m, I’m reasonably approximate with the pronunciation. Hopefully, I haven’t offended your Chinese listeners, which is always possible.

Joseph McGuire 2:29
But the understanding is that our static facial features reveal a huge amount of information about our personality, behavior style, communication patterns, both in terms of how we receive absorb and process information, and then how we communicate externally, stress triggers and responses, family influences in terms of relationship with mother or father, that sets of genetic patterns as well as our emotional responses to life.

Joseph McGuire 2:54
They tell a lot about how we will how we will progress through a given project or undertaking, our thinking style by the word likely to be more linear, whether we’re likely to be more creative, or kind of some kind of a mixed mix between. and it could do more besides

Al McBride 3:11
that there’s a lot going on there. Now. You’ve been working with healthcare professionals who said since 85, and the last five years you’ve gone, particularly in Ireland into working with businesses, that must be a huge change. Or it wasn’t much the same, because we talked about this in our in our previous conversation about when you come into businesses, I’m sure there must be some people very open minded. But there are a lot of ready skeptics. So talk us through that. How do you handle How do you feel those skeptics, how do you win them over?

Joseph McGuire 3:42
I love working with skeptics, they’re the most fun to be perfectly honest. So typically, like one, one particular conversation really, really jumps out. There was some chap a matter of a networking, networking meeting, and we arranged to meet for a coffee. And when I told him what I did, he sat back in his chair, folded his arms and looked at me and said here, right? So that’s me, that was a perfect invitation.

Joseph McGuire 4:07
Perfect opening. So I said, Okay, take out your phone, show me a photo on your phone of somebody, you know, well, that I couldn’t possibly know. And I’ll tell you about them. And I did that. And it’s all okay. Yeah, that’s one of the most difficult clients I’ve ever had. And you’ve just summed them up in two minutes. And then he showed me a photo of his business partner.

Joseph McGuire 4:28
So I described her. And then, as a consequence of that she showed me she actually sent me a photo of somebody and again, there was no no information beyond beyond the photo. So I sent her I sent her back a couple of paragraphs, and then they invited me to their company Christmas party.

Joseph McGuire 4:50
I get to go to meet her. And she said, again, that’s that’s the most challenging client I’ve ever had. And it took me six months. Get through. And you summed them up into paragraphs. So that just opens doors. And that typically is how business comes from skeptics.

Al McBride 5:10
Well, by literally just doing the doing the job doing the reading and giving the the insight because what’s interesting is it’s not generic stuff that you’re fairly specific about certain, as you say, personality traits, how they take information, how they like to communicate, and be communicated to.

Al McBride 5:31
In that, in that vein, I better put myself on the line here and say, right, for the guest, because some people might be you know, looking at this on YouTube, a lot of people more so will be listening to it on the audio, but I’m sure they can see a picture of me on the site. And they know what I looked like, vaguely or specifically. So I will invite fight on this process. So yes, go ahead. Okay, yes, they say, right,

Joseph McGuire 6:03
absolutely. Well, I’m like Columbo, you know, the old TV detective was one more thing. So once I start, I can be difficult to stop. So do feel free to go

Al McBride 6:11
as long as you let me pause you. But we’ll keep we may come back to it. So keep keep going. So good.

Joseph McGuire 6:17
Okay, well, there. It’s where to start, because everything kind of jumps out at me. But let’s just start with your eyebrows, your eyebrows are relatively thick, and they’re relatively straight. So that tells me number one, that you that when I’m explained, somebody is explaining to you or presenting something to you, you’d like to receive all the information.

Joseph McGuire 6:36
If somebody just gives it to you in little, little pieces, and you feel they’re holding back that’s frustrating for you. So you like to receive, you’d like to receive all our all our significant part of the information, you’d like it presented in quite a quite a linear fashion. Because it needs to make it needs to make logical sense to you. But then once you have the information, you then go off and you have to think about it and Okay, how can I? What can I do with that?

Joseph McGuire 7:02
How can I use it because you’re not just give not just a logical thinker, you like to take what’s being given and see how you can adapt it and develop something else from it. Because particularly where your work is concerned, you are you are quite creative. And you are you are a creative problem solver.

Joseph McGuire 7:21
And that’s something that’s something innate within you that you will, you will find yourself going into situations where people have been, say tangling or being challenged with with problems or issues for quite some time. And you will just look at them, you will just look at it briefly, you’ll get to the essence of it. And you say Oh, have you ever thought of and they’ll look at you? Where did that come from?

Joseph McGuire 7:44
Do you have that you have that capacity. And it’s I can see it in your features. But it’s hard, it’s hard to actually explain it, what you have the capacity to, it’s almost like you’re shining a laser on something that they’ve been at where they’ve been in the fog. And you can do that you can do that very, very quickly.

Joseph McGuire 8:01
But it does entail it does require you being being calm and relaxed going in. If you are going in stressed, it’s harder for you to do it. But the more the more calm and clear and prepared you are in terms of your inner state as aware, the easier it is for you to do that. And the more effectively you’ll do it. You’re also somebody then you’re also somebody, then who’s going to be naturally expressive.

Joseph McGuire 8:25
You are no shrinking violet by any means. That’s that’s very, very clear that you’ve also got I know, I’m probably I’m jumping from one thing to the next vestige of so much information in your face here. But you also have perfectionist tendencies. And one of your one of your challenges is not to over prepare, and not to overanalyze, because you can spend too much time on here.

Al McBride 8:49
Well, yeah, very interesting. Very interesting. What else you’re saying? So I mean, I don’t know what point we want to we want to get the feedback loop going. This is very interesting. And feel free to mention what what I know you’re reading the whole lot, and you’re taking the whole thing and in that way, thus explaining it to people completely unfamiliar is actually probably more difficult than explaining it to people who know what you’re talking about. But, but even if you can pick out a few things that you’re reading, just just so people know that you’re not just that’s not all from the

Joseph McGuire 9:22
absolutely Yes, right. Well, the I will just just refer back to the your eyebrows are relatively thick. So when somebody has thick eyebrows like that, it tells you that they like to protect they like to receive all the information they absorb, they absorb information, and it’s important to them to know that somebody is giving them all the information they require.

Joseph McGuire 9:41
And that would apply in because your eyebrows are thick, both eyebrows. That would apply both in a business situation but also in a personal relationship that you need to people you need to know that people aren’t even to feel that people are being upfront and giving you all your Holly really need you Then have the fact that there, the eyebrows are quite relatively straight, which tells you that essentially, it’s important to you to receive the information in a linear logical fashion.

Joseph McGuire 10:10
But then your, your your forehead is relatively vertical in the sort of the main body of the forehead as it were. So that tells me that, then analysis is very important. I didn’t mention analysis, but analysis is very important to you.

Joseph McGuire 10:23
But then you go beyond the analysis, once you’ve once you’ve defined a structure and made sensitive, sensitive information for yourself, then you’re your hairline at the top is the head, obviously, I don’t have a hairline. But at the, at the top, at the top of the forehead here, this is just the rounded piece, which tells me that problem solving is something innate within you.

Joseph McGuire 10:49
But also your your, your hairline at the at the right side, which is that the right side of the person’s face is the public side, the left side is the private side. So the right side is, is more expansive than the left. So it tells me particularly in your business life, in your professional life, you create a thinking and use of your imagination, and finding creative solutions is really important to you.

Joseph McGuire 11:14
But it’s also, it’s not just important to you, in terms of a value, it’s something that comes very naturally to you. And if you were in a if you were in a business situation, where people told you, this is the way we do it, and this is the way we’ve always done it, and this is the way we’re going to do it. No, just no interest does not work for you. Absolutely not. Yeah, right. Correct.

Al McBride 11:40
Very interesting. Very interesting. So I mean, it sounded like you were pretty much referring with no knowledge of you know, my Colby score, if people know the Colby inventory. You know, that was, that was pretty much how you described how I work. Yeah, that I, you know, it’s little things like I give you an example. Not to be over confirming everything, but for some reason I never liked mind mapping.

Al McBride 12:13
I just just write things out. Yes, then when I have the thing, as you said, when I’ve taken it in, I can then be hyper diverse with it and make connections with as you said, a lot of people probably won’t see. And yeah, absolutely. If I can’t make something my own, and I it’s one of the things I realized a long time ago I can I can never learn scripts as wave was rubbish actor, particularly Shakespeare, is it you never learned scripts?

Al McBride 12:44
I always remember the meaning of what people say rather than, sorry, is the meaning that I interpret of what people say. But not the exact wording is often more difficult. So it’s very interesting, very interesting. Indeed. And yeah, you know, creative problem solving is I get a big kick out of Absolutely.

Al McBride 13:04
And And on that note, you know, when you work with clients, and you’ve worked with many people in in different industries, and a lot of them, as you can imagine, are quite skeptical, or even if they’re very quietly skeptical to begin with, some are quite confrontationally. So but others, maybe you’re a bit quieter, and you know, okay, let’s see what this guy can do. What? Where do you get a kick out of the whole process? Is it proving that you’re right? Is it seeing them apply it like what what is it that really gives gives you great energy and gives you a great buzz from the whole thing? Yeah,

Joseph McGuire 13:42
I’m not I’m not overly concerned with being proven right? it perfectly honest with you, because God knows I’ve been wrong so often in my life anyway. And I’m open to making mistakes and learning. It’s more it’s more them, it’s more, it’s more seeing their eyes light up at the recognition. Oh, so that’s what that is. And that’s why I’ve had an issue with that person.

Joseph McGuire 14:03
That’s what oh, that’s, that’s why that’s where I’ve fallen short. And that’s how I can, that’s how I can change it. So it’s seeing the light bulbs go off for them. And whether that be whether that be an individual client or whether that be within a team. And to see if it’s an individual client, it’s obviously more more direct, it’s more, it’s more immediate. And as I suppose because it’s a one to one situation. They will they will often light up more immediately and be more effusive.

Joseph McGuire 14:30
But even in a team situation, to see the light bulbs going off for people to realize, oh, if I did that, or if I if I approach them that way. That could really change things. And it’s to see it’s to see the see people like telltale change in their posture, the change in their breathing, the faces they just start to smile and feel that like an energy and energy change in the room and dance and dance. The lovely thing Because it’s really my essential objective is to leave people feeling better about themselves for having met me. Right? That’s Yeah, yeah.

Al McBride 15:12
Very good. Very good. So there’s quite a lot. I mean, there’s so much to dig into on this one. So when when you’re helping people see these little insights about maybe, as you said, why there were personality clashes before, or why maybe there was friction there. What are some of those biggest traps, that this tends to expose or bring to light that people were falling into? Is there a kind of an 8020? Is there sort of 20% of them that tend to come up quite often, or?

Joseph McGuire 15:48
Well, the basic one that keeps coming up is that we assume we tend to see things through our own prism,

Al McBride 15:55
of course,

Joseph McGuire 15:56
myself. So we tend, we so often assume, because because people are so busy in their lives nowadays, those, the mind is so often overwhelmed, or in a state of just too much and too much going on. So we tend to act as if I’m presume and assume that others see things as we do. We don’t tend to recognize that others have a different learning style, some people are more.

Joseph McGuire 16:25
I’m kind of reluctant to use the word introvert or extrovert, because there’s so many variations there. But some people are more reserved, some people are, again, more and more logical, some people are more creative, some people are more more heart based, if you like.

Joseph McGuire 16:41
So it’s, it’s the biggest mistake really, that I see that people make is to not not recognize the other person, where the other person is out and who they’re coming from, or where they’re coming from. It’s like growing up with the golden rule, treat others as you would like to be treated. Platinum rule says treat others as they would like to be treated.

Joseph McGuire 16:59
And if we can begin to recognize where the other person is at, and to that to some degree, where they’ve come from, and maybe where they’d like to be going, then we can take into account how to deliver our message in a way that’s appropriate for them. And I’m not talking about watering down values or anything like that, but in essence, to build a bridge to communicate with the person effectively, and then explore where it goes, depending on context across.

Al McBride 17:26
It’s very interesting. I think you’re right, I think people intellectually they go, of course, people, you know, react differently than I do. But but on an emotional or habitual level, I think an awful lot of people really actually don’t understand it through their actions. And through their expectations, they literally don’t understand that a different people will act or think in a different way. It was something I was hearing the other day about the three levels of empathy.

Al McBride 17:57
Were the first is being able to recognize one’s own emotional state. So and the gradient of it, you know, am I angry? Or am I miffed? Or am I enraged, or, you know, on these sort of gradients, and being able to express that, so you’re empathetic to oneself, then, as you said, is the next one is the golden rule, you know, which is, oh, well, if I was in that situation, I’d feel this way. But then as you said, as the third level is exactly what you’re talking about, is realizing that, although I’d feel in that situation this way, immediately being aware that they may feel in a different way, and then being sensitive to that being able to spot that.

Al McBride 18:38
So Oh, that’s interesting. So, whereas I get angry in that situation, they were just offended or disappointed, but they weren’t angry. They were, you know, they went somewhere else, they went to a different place. And when you give people this paradigm to start seeing that start opening up that space, is is the face reading? Is that just sort of the starting point? Or is there more that can that can loop back in? Because I can imagine it’s very helpful, even just giving a one party but what happens when both people in that equation have have this insight?

Joseph McGuire 19:13
Yeah, well, one of the one of the changes that’s happened to my work over the last year with lockdown is people obviously, working from home, are living in work as so many people refer to it now. But so many people have found is that they’re living with people they thought they knew and loved. And realizing there are issues here because they’re spending far more time than they’ve ever done with these people. There’s still a large extent No way.

Joseph McGuire 19:43
So what I’ve bought, I saw some, you know, a fair chunk of the work that’s coming to me, actually in the last year is couples. And I’m very clear, I’m not there to fix relationships, but I’m helping them to recognize this is how you typically communicate. This is how he or she typically communicates. If you want this to work, there’s going to have to be an adaptability. And there’s going to have to be recognition of each other styles and each other’s patterns.

Joseph McGuire 20:09
So basically, once once people begin to take on the understanding that, yes, we are, we are different, we are seeing things, perceiving things, understanding things differently communicating differently, then it’s then it is a process. So I will usually take them through a program, where I like, I, in a previous conversation, I think I mentioned, I’m a magpie, and that I will take things from anywhere that anywhere that works. I’ve, I’ve engaged over so many years with friends and colleagues who’ve been master NLP, practitioners, psychologists, psycho analysts, what have you, because I’ve tended to gravitate towards those kinds of people. And we have the most amazing conversations, probably very boring to a lot of other people.

Joseph McGuire 21:00
And that then there’s so much greater opportunity by recognizing the limitation and accepting it and realizing that it’s down who have limited themselves, it’s not life is limited, there must not other people have limited them, which is so on reception as well. And that in letting go of the limit, and it is a letting go process for many people, sometimes it happens quickly. Sometimes it takes longer. But it letting go of that limit, they open themselves to far greater opportunity than they’ve been able to see before in terms of so often the immediate relationship, but also other relationships and the relationship with themselves.

Joseph McGuire 21:00
But to us there, there’s just so stimulating, because we just go in there. So I’ve taken a lot of ideas and techniques and approaches from a lot of other areas as well. And I will, I will bring those in and look to use them in the most appropriate way for the for the individual couple or team I’m working with. So that it really helps them to recognize a that they’ve, they’ve limited themselves, in terms of how they’re seeing things.

Al McBride 22:06
Wow, that’s quite something that is quite something. And it’s very interesting when you’re talking about working with couples, because couples, one would imagine, you know, the objective is to strengthen that relationship, which is already has a strong basis, at least over time. Equally worried when you go in and work with a team that, you know, at the very least, that they know that they’re roughly on the same trajectory as the business hopefully, talk to me for a little moment then about negotiation, because you mentioned negotiation.

Al McBride 22:45
And for me, it’s always this kind of this extension of similar principles of communication, but by definition, it’s a lot easier to walk away in a lot of negotiation situations. And it’s that classic thing where both parties like 80 90% of negotiators always say they’d love more trust. But unfortunately, they go straight to defensive positions far sooner than it may be other more business or social situations, whereas negotiations look more at the online or underlined. So they they read, they retract into these defensive postures. So I’m just fascinated as to how you help them. Get out. Is it just the same? Or is there is there more at work there with with people in negotiation?

Joseph McGuire 23:35
Yeah, obviously, it’s different over the last year where people aren’t meeting face to face. And that’s something that’s come up. I mean, I’ve heard it from clients, but also something I came across in a Harvard Business Review report. Were saying that 80% of the executives they surveyed, said that they were having great difficulty building trust online, because they weren’t meeting face to face, they weren’t seeing all the typical body language and posture, etc, that they would normally see. So what is it, it is a real challenge.

Joseph McGuire 24:04
One of the things I typically advise people going into negotiation is to enter the negotiation with a smile. It’s very underrated. People don’t tend to realize the power of a smile and creating an atmosphere where we can begin typically can begin to establish trust. It’s not enough in itself to establish trust, but it’s a beginning. Because we are hardwired to recognize to perceive a smile as being non threatening.

Joseph McGuire 24:34
And if we don’t feel threatened, it’s easier for us to take a breath and just just settle down a little bit so it can defuse at least some degree of that adversarial dimension as well willingness, then there’s the willing, like you can’t separate the non variable from the variable when it comes to the negotiation, that’s that’s that’s abundantly clear, but rather than going into adversarial mode, that willingness to be curious, the willingness to explore, and a desire to how can I put that desire to achieve rather than rather than rather than just going in with a fixed limit.

Joseph McGuire 25:20
And this is this is all that’s possible. And we’re not going below that. So we’re not going above that, which so often happens to recognize that there, there may be other opportunities beyond what’s immediately apparent on the table. And to be willing to be willing to bring your sense of curiosity for quite a while if and to ask those questions and to be relaxed enough within oneself. Because so often, when people go in with that adversarial mentality, they’re so tense within themselves, they’re carrying so much stress within themselves, which is not helping them physiologically, mentally, emotionally, or any other way.

Joseph McGuire 25:21
But to, to that, that, that willingness to be curious and to to explore other possibilities beyond what’s apparent on the table. Allows allows for greater use of the imagination allows, it frees up the mind in a way that people often haven’t thought of. But it also allows us to relax in itself, which is less stressful. And if we’re kind of if our posture is more relaxed. And I’m not talking about sprawled out, I’m not just talking, just just count, I’m just talking about can we can be operated and calm. But the more the more that the more we achieve that the more that in itself communicates itself to our counterparts across the table.

Al McBride 26:47
Absolutely, as they will say, and a lot of my mentors used to say, you know, be as you want your audience to feel. Now, that’s if you’re doing a presentation, but at the same principle, if it’s one to one or five, on one side, the five and the other. It’s, as you said, it’s embodying that openness. Now I’m not saying being foolishly trusting, I’m saying open, warm, you know, ascribing positive intent, then it’s a lot easier for the other side to go, okay, you know, they immediately get those vibes, it’s a non, it’s not really a, it’s a non intellectual thing.

Al McBride 27:27
And as I said, so you don’t need to remember anything, you just relax, breathe into it, and go, and as you said, that sets up that, that a very different vibe to an adversarial one. And, also, as you said, it is very true, because I’m just thinking, as you were saying that, if you go in like that, your Win Win, if you go intense, then people are like, well, what is it like, if you meet someone in a bar who’s tense like that, you think, oh, they’re gonna, they’re either nervous about something which makes you uneasy, or they’re about to hate you or something which makes you uneasy. So it’s just a natural sort of read and respond type of mentality or a vibe that you’re sending out. So as you say, No wonder people jump to defensive positions, because they think, Oh, this person is either defensive or is trying to attack me.

Joseph McGuire 28:55
Yeah, there’s some people who find it very difficult. So much of my work comes through word of mouth referral, but I’ve done work for somebody. And I typically ask them, okay, you’ve, you’ve worked with me, you’ve seen the results, you’re happy with me? So who can you introduce me to? So that opens a door. So, so at the very least, the person who’s whose door is opened, is to some degree receptive. And I will, you know, I will, you know, their their second criteria for any of us in working with clients. One of the one of the, one of the criteria for me is that the person actually has to have a sense of humor.

Al McBride 29:32
That’s really important. It’s an interesting one. It’s one of the most forgotten, isn’t it?

Joseph McGuire 29:38
Yeah. Yeah. Because if somebody if somebody can laugh, particularly if we’ve some degree of shared sense of humor, my mind is pretty broad. But if there’s something like if you can have a laugh with somebody, then it opens up, it opens up all sorts of possibilities for creative conversation, a practical conversation, getting things done together. Because once some They can laugh at shows that they have the capacity to relax. And they have the capacity to take on new ideas and not be not be fixed. And this is how this is who I am, this is how I operate. because that tends to be very self limiting. And I’ve often been barred from self defeating actually,

Al McBride 30:17
usually, I’m just you remind me there and I have mentioned before, and I’m totally with you on the on the humor side, but you just trigger that thought that some of the best negotiators who’ve created amazing value out of what seemed to be nothing, you know, looking from the outside, and more, most of them tend to have this ability to lighten the mood, particularly if things are getting heavy, usually directing their humor at themselves in a self deprecating and fun way, you know?

Al McBride 30:50
So which also when you think about it, what’s the message that says, you know, that they’re able to not take themselves too seriously. So you kind of think, Okay, this this person isn’t like, crazy ego level, even in other ways, they might be sound a little bit egotistical, because they are very accomplished, but then they’re able to take themselves down and arch anything. Okay, maybe there’s more dimensions here. Yeah, that’s a really interesting point, massively, undervalued, massively undervalued. It What else?

Al McBride 31:21
Well, that’s a really interesting trait that you mentioned, are there any other ones that come up? Because we mentioned the smile at the start, which sets the tone and just to mention, I know, you mean, a genuine smile, just ellipses, the eyes, the eye muscles around the eyes. Because humans can tell, we can tell even when you’re not, you’re not aware to look for the eye muscles, we can see that the if the eye muscles aren’t moving, it’s a full smile. And that’s a nervous, like, What do you want? What’s going on? Right? So we mentioned the smile to start with, we mentioned bringing, in a sense, a little warmth, a little humor, being able to actually laugh, particularly at oneself, and make light of certain things, as I said, particularly if things get a little tense at times. So what are the little traits there? Do you help instill? Or do you help encourage negotiators? Maybe, which, as you said, isn’t really in their normal repertoire? What

Unknown Speaker 32:12
What else do

Al McBride 32:13
you bring back in?

Joseph McGuire 32:15
Well, it’s, it’s, maybe I’ll go the opposite direction, actually, because we talked you talked about openness there a short while ago. And it’s not to be it’s not to be under any illusion that every relationship is going to work. Or that every negotiation is going to work. So we do need to be discerning, and sometimes something is just not going to happen. And we need to say, okay, we tried, we did our best here. And unfortunately, for whatever reason, it’s not working. So one of the things I tend to particularly emphasize to people is to make eye contact, and to ask yourself, that, again, so many people are not attuned to the fact that our whole body is an antenna.

Joseph McGuire 32:59
Our whole body is an antenna, like we taught, obviously, I work with face reading, which is very visual, somewhere between 60 and 90%, of all the electrical activity around the brain is geared around vision. But we are so are so caught up with, you know, the brain in here, rather than the three brains. And we forget that our body is picking up so much information, like it’s referred to as body language. That’s because our body is not just communicating, our body is also receiving, and our body is receiving so much information. And the to be just reliant on our eyes can deceive us to be just reliant on the wording and understanding the logic etc, of the wording can can be very seductive. And we can we can be led down a false path as well.

Joseph McGuire 33:52
But if we’re paying attention to the body, and what our bot signals our body is giving us, and again, that does require in our preparation, it’s not something we just walk into a room, and suddenly we’re all we’re all attuned, but it does require training and preparation. And then once we’ve got that, then I particularly pay attention to eye contact, and what by what message are the eyes giving. And there are three basic possibilities. The three basic possibilities either the, the eyes are warm, the eyes are neutral, or the eyes are cold.

Joseph McGuire 34:26
And if the eyes are warm, and genuinely warm, and we have we will feel it as much as see it then tells us this is somebody who’s amenable to at least the possibility of doing business. If the eyes are neutral, then they’re not sure. So that’s where it’s important to demonstrate that we are trustworthy and that we are authentic. Whereas if the eyes are cold, they’re there for themselves, and they do not give a damn about us. So we need to be very clear about that. So that’s why we do not overly sell ourselves or Be too open and leave ourselves in a position of weakness. That’s where we need to be very discerning. But the eyes reveal so much.

Al McBride 35:11
Exactly the the, as I said, the, the emotional expression is harder to fake. Yeah, in that way. And, you know, again, talking to some of the skeptics might be listening to this, you know, we as a human tribes communicated for literally millions of years before we had language. And it was all through gesture and all through, it’s why our faces are so expressive, so that we can display emotions to the other other people, you know. Yeah. So it’s, it’s hardly a surprise that we’re still able to, somewhat intuitively interpret things.

Al McBride 35:49
Now, it’s not exactly one thing means exactly this. Because if you ask anyone, you know, cross your arms. So what does this mean? You know, people go, Oh, you’re closed off other people know, you’re, you’re, you’re resigned to something if you’re certain other people will say, oh, maybe you’re cold. And all of you may or may or may not be right. But there’s sort of a vague overlap of an area. And it’s the same with, as you said, when you when you’re, when you’re taking in as an antenna, the signals being sent from the other side. It’s a very interesting point that sometimes you get a vibe that this person is quite closed off.

Al McBride 36:26
As I said, or even this person is out to get me, which, actually, sometimes they are out to get you. Oh, yeah, you’re not being too paranoid, right. It’s a very interesting observation. As you said, it’s a realist observation, really, it’s not all teaching the world saying here, you know, it’s like, sometimes people are actually out to screw you over there to get you. Or other people. You’re just not a fit. And that’s okay, too. Yeah. So yeah, so, as I said, so what sort of advice would you give to some people in setting themselves up to make a better groom?

Al McBride 37:02
We talked about entering with a smile, we talked about appreciating that everything might work out, is there anything else that you’d say to some of your clients to set them up? You mentioned being a little bit more open. Maybe we’ve covered all the main points here. But are there any other little thoughts on that?

Joseph McGuire 37:18
Yeah, the inner, the inner work is really important. That the inner preparation, like to me, meditation is just an essential part of my day. Exercise, and it’s an a vital part of my day. So making time for those things that we know, nurture us. And again, so many of us are out of touch with our bodies, like we get it’s one thing, it’s one thing to, you know, do a workout and work on this treadmill, but to actually, and that’s you know, that that’s geared towards physical fitness, but it’s not necessarily geared towards health and well being. And there aren’t there are distinctions between those between those areas,

Al McBride 37:55
we’re going to clarify on that one for a few people. Because there might be thinking, yeah, I go to the gym, I do, you know, my cross training or whatever, three times a week and these sort of things. But did as you said, there’s a difference. There’s a very much a different awareness going on there. So it just even just clarify for another moment there on that?

Joseph McGuire 38:13
Absolutely. Yeah. Well, again, my my background is from the traditional oriental perspective, and in terms of the because that was my training as a therapist initially. And the understanding is that the mind and the body are one inseparable unit. And that’s been verified increasingly with, you know, neuroscience, epigenetics, etc. So, the, there’s one thing, it’s one thing to be fit externally in terms of, you know, having the, you know, the musculature, having the six pack, being able to run a marathon or whatever it is. But it’s another thing to be to be well within oneself and to, to have that deep sense of contentment, to have a deep sense of ease, relaxation, creativity, mental alertness, all of those alongside that state of physical fitness. And for so many people, they’re physically fit, but they’re not necessarily healthy.

Al McBride 39:07
Okay,

Joseph McGuire 39:08
that’s something that’s something I’ve noticed so often over and over so many years. So the more we The more we blur. And those areas, the more we, the more we, we recognize that they’re complimentary to each other. And the more, the more, the more they strengthen us, when we’re when we’re nurturing all of those areas. And, like, for me, meditation is essential. As I said, for other people, it may be just doing something creative, that takes them away from all the thinking. And again, it’s not for me to say what’s creative for one person as opposed to another, but to take them away that and they’re just in that realm of imagination, creativity, where time doesn’t exist, etc.

Joseph McGuire 39:50
That’s apart from me of the inner preparation. So when we’re the more we do that, the more clear we can be and assuming we’re obviously not discounting the thing of doing, you know, doing our due diligence, going into a meeting, etc, obviously. But assuming we have that, that that mix, right, and it’s, it’s never finished. It’s always a dynamic process.

Joseph McGuire 40:16
But assuming we were doing that and paying attention to it, the more relaxed we are, the more calm we are, the more alert we are going into a meeting. So then we can bring in the smile, you know, etc, etc. And then we can engage in a much more relaxed way that that that in itself communicates that we are present, that we are more trustworthy, that we are somebody they can do business with, depending on what actually transpires.

Al McBride 40:45
It’s very interesting. Yeah, I mean, I’m a huge fan of meditation, mindfulness, depending on what you want to call it, or what version one does of it. But as I said it, I often notice the days that I don’t do it, I do. And one of the big changes I’ve noticed is, and I’m sure this is no great insight for a lot of people, but for me, certainly, it allows you just this extra arm’s length or things, you’re less reactive. And when things pop up. And this has been shown in studies that I’ve read that people are literally less reactive to sudden noises going off.

Al McBride 41:23
I mean, talking about literally things exploding in your face, you’re just less, you’re more in your own in your own space, you’re more able to then if you think about that, then in a negotiation or important communication, whether it was with a client or a prospect or your team or whatever or your spouse, it means that you’re not just going to jump on what your emotional, reactive self, often, which is primed for danger, right, will find a tiny bit of evidence and go oh, you know, and maybe overreact or react in a less appropriate, less optimal way.

Al McBride 42:01
Whereas as you say, when you’ve done that exercise, de stress and you’re in a healthy way, or you’re more you mentioned, I think more connected more harmonious with yourself, then it’s a lot easier you’re not, it sounds like you know, when you’re doing these things, right, when you’re going into that meeting, then you’re less needing to, to become nest needing to do these actions, like most remember to smile. No, you just smile. Just remember to be open and warm and inviting.

Al McBride 42:38
And, uh, you know, it’s like, No, no, you just do that. You just be that do that. And then they feel that and because you feel it, you know, it’s not it’s not ratified. So it’s a very interesting point. It’s a very interesting point. At just on that, then, you know, what are some just tell us some of those on your journey and your career trajectory? What are some of those bigger struggles that you’ve encountered and how you came through them or overcame them? Okay,

Joseph McGuire 43:07
well, where do you start? Okay, I’ve never really had a career trajectory of such things I’ve kind of developed by osmosis. I grew up, I mean, I grew up, I didn’t have a shred of confidence. So it’s, it’s been an ongoing journey to learn. I like the world didn’t make sense to me growing up. So I was a very, very insecure, very, very uptight, young man. And it’s it’s been a non year, it’s been a long ongoing learning process, which continues to feel at ease with the world feel at ease within myself, be able to be able to communicate much more effectively build relationships in ways I simply wasn’t equipped to build, either personally or professionally, many years ago. So the the more I’ve, the more I’ve learned more I’ve learned to relax.

Joseph McGuire 44:05
The more I’ve established, better quality relationships, the more I’ve been able to bring out my skills more effectively, the more I found people opening up to me on a kind of personal and professional level, because one of the things I’ve learned is that I did have from very early on is that I was a good listener, again, and it’s not necessarily remembering exactly the words but it’s remembering the the essential, the essential nature of what people have said and where they were coming from.

Joseph McGuire 44:34
And not just not just listening to the words, but the stick to where you know what was behind the words. So, what I found is that the more I’ve relaxed within myself, even in business conversations, the more people have opened up to me about other life stuff. So I’ve been able to establish a greater a greater depth of relationship, a greater depth of connection, a greatest greater quality of trust within so many relationships now that I simply wasn’t equipped to do many years ago.

Joseph McGuire 45:11
And the more I’ve relaxed, the more heightened my skill set has been. So that’s what I that’s what I teach people. And then that’s what I do. Because what I what I do, I can’t I don’t know how to teach. Right? I will be working with somebody and I will see stuff that I know, that I just know is right. And I’ll say it and say, Oh, yeah, how did how did you know that? I don’t know how I knew it. But I know it. Because it’s going partly it’s the meditative state. Partly it’s, I guess, something innate, partly standard resonance with the individual or with the group, that we’re just in a we’re in a different state for something to happen for something to emerge. that’s beneficial. Right,

Al McBride 45:57
very roundabout answer to your question. No, no, no, that it’s very interesting, because it’s a coming together and lots of things that that we discussed, from a very interesting point of view. And it reminds us that mindfulness, that you’re acquiring a lot of the chitter, chatter, the self talk, so that you’re able to actually hear those little insights, and you’re not sure where they come from, but you can, you can float the motion and an awful lot of the time like myself, an awful lot of the time, they’re very accurate, or very helpful, or incisive, or whatever their value is the point.

Al McBride 46:32
And it’s something that you mentioned, that I was just going to ask you about, which was the power of listening. And I suppose that in many ways, that’s what a lot of this is about, you were talking about things that you know, you can’t so much as teach. But the power of listening is slightly different thing. It’s, it’s what we’re talking about in that mindfulness, you’re able to quiet your own voice, you know, do your own chatter, your own critic. And also, as you were saying, reduce that idea of everyone’s like me, which is a big part of the listening, but what else would you say about the power of listening? How have people taken that up? And what sort of exercises would you would you advocate that they try?

Joseph McGuire 47:12
Okay, um, I probably haven’t explored that in terms of communicating that externally, as much as I could. So take Tai Chi for planting that seed. But one of the one of the things I’ve learned is the power of silence, but not talking. And like in a given meeting, not saying anything. And just holding the silence, and holding the silence for up to 30 seconds. It’s amazing what people reveal, because they’re uncomfortable. And they start to speak. So it’s a wonderful, I mean, you will notice anyway, but it’s a wonderful, it’s a wonderful tool to use, if you’re not sure what’s going on.

Joseph McGuire 47:56
Or if you don’t want to reveal something, but you’re waiting for something to emerge from the other person or the to the people across the table. And to just just relax, just breathe, just breathe, maybe smile, maybe maybe not smile, but just just breathe, and just settle and just allow, allow the good 30 seconds to lapse for you’re not saying anything. And you’re just even if it’s just collecting your thoughts, which is to allow that. And it’s amazing what emerges from from other people, when you just allow that because silence is so powerful, and so many people are terrified.

Al McBride 48:35
It’s such a good point, you remind me of so many things. I remember when I was an art dater back in the day, you know, we’d talk through the thing, we talked to what they liked to go talk to any of these barriers and reduce or remove some of the barriers. They liked it. But then at a certain point, as he said, It’s literally just shutting the hell up. And invariably, then they just be thinking, and then, you know, four times out of five, nine out of 10 that say, yeah, I’ll take it, you know.

Al McBride 49:04
And it’s just that I mean, that’s in a business context, but you reminded me a lot of quite a few good friends, were able to just have that. We don’t need to feel the air every moment. And it is remarkable the amount of times where it could be 20 seconds, it could be three minutes, that would be quiet. But then the minute one of us about to speak. We both kind of have a laugh a lot to say about something coming back to each other. You know, it’s an interesting thing. And I know in negotiation, it’s a fascinating one because some personality types take silence to the other side as an invitation to keep speaking, which is great because then you’re sitting there you’re just getting more and more information and insights, you know, but as you said, others think it’s it’s a thing of criticism that they’re judging you.

Joseph McGuire 49:57
Oh, absolutely. Yes. Yes. And it is it is it Again, it’s a thing of being attuned to recognize when it’s appropriate, so that it’s not perceived as a threat.

Al McBride 50:07
Exactly.

Joseph McGuire 50:08
Unless you want to use it that way. As part of the strategy, it’s not, that wouldn’t be my particular approach, but I know people do it. Sometimes it’s appropriate.

Al McBride 50:20
It’s an extension of, you know, having them, you know, what would change their offer, without you having to counteroffer just saying, you know, even just quiet and then say something like, you know, can you need to do better on this or you need? Can you do better on this, if you want to be a bit warmer? Yeah, it’s a strategy depends on your personality and your decided the context and everything. But it’s certainly something, something they’re very interesting stuff. Well, on that note, we should pause the conversation there until we talk again, Joseph, I think thank you so much for, for talking with us today.

Joseph McGuire 50:56
You always have absolute pleasure thoroughly enjoyed and loved. I love the fact that the questions can just kind of come from anywhere and flow in any direction. And at the same time, lovely focus.

Al McBride 51:04
It’s It’s how I roll. So if people wanted to learn more about you, or reach out to you, how is the best way to do that you have, visit you on LinkedIn, the link will be below and your website, tell us a little bit that,

Joseph McGuire 51:19
okay, LinkedIn is the best way to contact me to connect with me. The website is very much in transition and will be in transition for the next probably few months. Because I there’s a lot of stuff, I just want to change on it. But there are quite a few practical blog articles on it, which will give people insight into different visual cues. Again, I haven’t written haven’t written a blog piece in a long time. But there are there’s a bit of a backlog there that can provide people with some some information that because of practical use, but LinkedIn is the best way to connect. Okay.

Al McBride 51:52
Very good. And I have your book here, face facts. It’s a very concise, read no filler. I enjoyed this very interesting stuff. If people want a copy of the face facts, how can they How can they do that?

Joseph McGuire 52:05
Again, the best bet at the moment is to contact me on LinkedIn, because unfortunately, that page has gone down on my website overall. And it needed it’s in the process of being fixed. But if they contact me on LinkedIn, we can take it from there.

Al McBride 52:21
Outstanding stuff. So LinkedIn is the is the key and hub easiest way to get in touch with extra stuff. Well, thank you very much, Joseph. Cheers for that. Thank

Joseph McGuire 52:29
you. Awesome. Thank you so much.

Al McBride 28:18
So as you said, B is the as you wish to, as you wish your audience to feel your Counterparty field. And it is fascinating. Because when you’re not in survival, then you’re able to be creative, you’re able to actually cooperate and, and collaborate, even better. Have you how fast you find people are able to shift? And how far are able to shift from in your experience when you work with some of these people negotiating? Is it a very gradual thing? Are they actually able to, surprisingly, almost nearly flick a switch when they’re able to get into that headspace?

Transcribed by https://otter.ai